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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Pete is adding a lot of characters in the film adaption"...

News from Bree
spymaster@theonering.net

Mar 26 2011, 6:50am

Post #1 of 149 (5221 views)
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"Pete is adding a lot of characters in the film adaption"... Can't Post



The LA Times '24 Frames' blog has an interview with rumored Hobbit participant, Saiorse Ronan, which reveals a significant statement about PJ's adaptation of The Hobbit to film. Among other highlights in the article is the following statement from Ms. Ronan:
"Pete is adding a lot of characters in the film adaption," she said. "Hopefully they have a part for me."

This lines up with long standing rumors that a character named 'Itaril' has been added to the movie and Ms. Ronan is queued up for the role.

Itaril is described in unofficial casting call sheets as: female, A woodland Elf, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King's Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17-27.

Time will tell, but odds are we'll be seeing Saiorse Ronan in this role for The Hobbit. Saiorse also mentioned that The Hobbit will be 'a little bit lighter than 'Lord of the Rings'.' Read the full interview at the LA Times [Read on]


Bound
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 1:36pm

Post #2 of 149 (2891 views)
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I'm guessing.. [In reply to] Can't Post

that peter isn't adding lots of main characters but rather fleshing out rolls. Like instead of nameless elves in mirkwood or in rivendale they will be characters with names etc etc.

Also the same would go for Hobbiton and Dale.

Plus i'm guessing Soairse hasn't seen the script so she might just be talking in general terms.

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


moreorless
Gondor

Mar 26 2011, 1:56pm

Post #3 of 149 (2891 views)
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Someone for Bilbo to interact with? [In reply to] Can't Post

I always had a feeling that Jackson might look to have Bilbo interact with someone during the Dwaves imprisonment, an elf that disagrees with the imprisonment and provides some degree of help to the escape.

I can see all the arguements agenst it("it takes away from Bilbo's actions", "why would and elf go agenst orders?") but having a character totally isolated in that fashion is very hard to deal with cinematically. It also seems like it would be a way of getting the elves somewhat closer to LOTR, having at least one of them "on side" for the first film.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 2:12pm

Post #4 of 149 (2777 views)
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I share your thoughts. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit as a book shares one major thing with most fairy tales. It focuses entirely upon the central characters, not even giving names to peripheral characters let alone any kind of background. Peter will have to hang flesh on those bones. Also as far as translation to live action film is concerned, the Dwarves captivity in the Woodland Realm is devoid of any interesting action. Something will need to be changed there. I am certain that the escape from the Woodland Realm will be intense and exciting.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
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Flagg
Tol Eressea


Mar 26 2011, 2:30pm

Post #5 of 149 (2699 views)
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I look forward to seeing the new characters. [In reply to] Can't Post

Complaining about them will achieve nothing, so we might as well climb aboard and see what the writers have cooked up for us. All hands on deck...


tolkiennerd
Lorien


Mar 26 2011, 2:46pm

Post #6 of 149 (2689 views)
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maybe like LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

I think they could add a few new characters in like in LOTR (Lurtz Gothmog Madril) but no one that will alter the story too much. (Itaril marrying Bard)


Symbelmine
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 2:50pm

Post #7 of 149 (2687 views)
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Itaril marrying Bard? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's not need to worry about this.It's more likely she will marry Legolas:((((
Sorry everyone but I had to again.


farmer maggot
Rivendell

Mar 26 2011, 3:06pm

Post #8 of 149 (2740 views)
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Agreed 100% - The Hobbit adaptation will need that 'fleshing out' [In reply to] Can't Post

LOTR as written is incredibly rich in detail, context and atmosphere - the adaptation challenge was to contain it. The Hobbit, initially aimed at children, is still rich in narrative, ideas and action (overall) but otherwise is really sparse. THe writers and designers have to fill in the background to the story fully, places and characters, or it will be a pale and weak offering compared to the might trilogy. The 'purists' (whatever that may be) may fret about how it is done but there really is no choice.


Auraran
Lorien

Mar 26 2011, 3:09pm

Post #9 of 149 (2687 views)
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That's an interesting thought [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be against it normally, unless it dovetails with what Bilbo himself actually does -- and only helps him do it. For example, instead of leaving it to pure "chance" that he finds out about the autumn feast that night in the palace, an inside Elf tells him about this. And perhaps that insider also suggests the escape through the water gate inside barrels, and make sure that the chief jailer and cook drink the most potent wine.

Wouldn't it be funny if that Elf was Legolas?


farmer maggot
Rivendell

Mar 26 2011, 3:15pm

Post #10 of 149 (2651 views)
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I wouldn't worry too much about this [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be very surprised if the additions and extras the writers (including GDT) have added were not aimed entirely at supporting the main story lines, Bilbo's quest and the White Council developments. I think distractions like Elven weddings, in any format, are unlikely as they add nothing to the real story.


Symbelmine
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 3:21pm

Post #11 of 149 (2583 views)
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you are right [In reply to] Can't Post

elven wedding is unlikely but romance doesn't sound so unlikely to me:(((


sphdle1
Gondor


Mar 26 2011, 3:25pm

Post #12 of 149 (2608 views)
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I think she'd make a good elf [In reply to] Can't Post

will be interesting to watch the movie as PJ & co. have written characters in, and then later seeing which ones they added that were not in the books, and then to see what readers reactions/thoughts will be on these characters (good or bad).

sphdle1

"You shall not pass!"


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 3:31pm

Post #13 of 149 (2685 views)
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"why would and elf go agenst orders?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Because she falls for one of the Dwarfs (Thorin? Kili?).

Casting an eye further down the thread, her pairing with Bard seems a distinct possibility. The same people who turned Aragorn's ascension into a bid to save Arwen might have Bard save Itaril from a dragon. The Smaug arc is going to be compared to Dragonslayer anyway...

Angelic


Sunflower
Valinor

Mar 26 2011, 4:04pm

Post #14 of 149 (2634 views)
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We'll just have to wait and see [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm guessing, at the least, they'll HAVE to flesh out Bard. I'd love to see a background story/family or some such with him. The one environment I can't wait to see is Lake-town...its people and situation...which we'll prob see more of in the 2nd film. As for being light-hearted...well, of course it will start out that way. The first film will prob be a shock to those in the Industry/film-only audience who are expecting more of the "high, elvated" tone of LOTR. But I imagine the closer we get to the Mounbtain/Smaug, and in the 2nd film, it'll have more f the look/tone/feel of LOTR. Which is as it should be.

One thing though...we just don't know. What if there is more real addition of characters in Film 2. What if one of these characters was more Guilermo's idea than Petes, but Peter as director gets all the credit for Guillermo's ideas/.//its HIS baby now and the medai will only see it in those termsa. Guillermo being the good sport he is, will see the film like everyone else and be happy for Peter and the films' success...but don't you think that after years of this, it may start to bug him in an artistic sense if Peter continues to get all the credit/the legacy for something HE largely invented, esp if that addition is a monster or creature?

What if, if this had been LOTR, Lurtz or the village woman with the 2 kids had been Guillermo's invention, or if Guillermo had desgned the look of the Balrog, and then Peter took over, and got all the credit and the money from that character? Who sold a LOT of action figures.

Gentleman or no, I don't care how gracious a person is, this is where things go squirrelly... that would have to be a personal blow...

That is why, to possibly avoid such issues, sad to say, very little or possibly none of Guillermo's origional characters, concepts or desgins will srvive. Esp with Peter's writing process. When a direcgtor take sover, they make the world totally their own. Very sad.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 4:28pm

Post #15 of 149 (2565 views)
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That would be a hard turn [In reply to] Can't Post

into another universe...Dogs and cats living together...and Dragonslayer was pretty much a straight telling of the ancient Dragon European tales. Tolkien's version of the Dragon tale is different in any number of ways, and I would hope PJ keeps it that way.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 4:30pm

Post #16 of 149 (2597 views)
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I am sure G can cope. [In reply to] Can't Post

He has a long and illustrious career ahead of him.

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 4:32pm

Post #17 of 149 (2572 views)
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Legolas was single... [In reply to] Can't Post

unless you count his companionship with Gimli.Evil

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
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Flagg
Tol Eressea


Mar 26 2011, 4:37pm

Post #18 of 149 (2581 views)
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Is this speculation? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
That is why, to possibly avoid such issues, sad to say, very little or possibly none of Guillermo's origional characters, concepts or desgins will srvive. Esp with Peter's writing process. When a direcgtor take sover, they make the world totally their own. Very sad.

Is this just a hunch, or do you have any evidence or precedents for this conclusion? I should hope that Guillermo will be at least co-credited for the films' artistic direction, as John Howe and Alan Lee were on the trilogy – that should take care of any confusion over who contributed what. No one but the most ignorant of audiences would automatically attribute a film's artwork to its director (unless he was also specifically credited as an art director or something similar).



Symbelmine
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 4:38pm

Post #19 of 149 (2606 views)
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Legolas and Gimli [In reply to] Can't Post

I see his companionship with Gimli as huge friendship but I don't know what to think about his making woo woo eyes on Aragorn in the movieEvilJust kidding...


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 4:47pm

Post #20 of 149 (2542 views)
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Aragorn all ready had his Elf waitin' for him to come back from the war.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Mar 26 2011, 5:03pm

Post #21 of 149 (2571 views)
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Let the worrying begin! [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me just paraphrase Philipa's comment from the DVD interviews:

"The fans try to be the guardians of the source material, but they're not, it's bigger than any one person or group of people..."

Or something like that. The point is, let's not get into the "PJ isn't a purist" debate again. TongueTongue Remember, he didn't too shabbily the first time around...

BTW, given that Itaril is from Mirkwood and Saorise Ronan looks like Orlando, I'd bet there's more a chance of Itaril being Legolas' younger sister rather than the two having any kind of romance, (unless it's incestuous like most of Middle-earth)! Cool

If "Young Elf Lord" shows up in the script, I'd guess it'll be Elladan or Elrohir, and the son of Elrond and daughter of Thranduil will end up "hooking up" before one or both are squashed like a bug at the BoFA.

I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Mar 26 2011, 5:10pm)


rings7
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 5:10pm

Post #22 of 149 (2552 views)
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Unlike the Hobbit I didn't read the trilogy, so [In reply to] Can't Post

did Peter do the same to the LOTR movies? did he add many characters besides Arwen?


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Mar 26 2011, 5:14pm

Post #23 of 149 (2546 views)
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He didn't "add" Arwen... [In reply to] Can't Post

he put her story from the appendices into the story proper...he also took a name created by Tolkien, "Gothmog", and used it for the Orc Lieutenant of the Witch-King, and created the "Madril" Ranger character in Gondor and the "Morwyn" character in Rohan who had all of three minutes of screen-time, as well as the Orc "Sharku" who again had about three lines.

BTW, "Irolas" in Minas Tirith was supposedly going to be Beregond from the book, but he was so different from his literally incarnation that PJ make him a "new" character, again based on a name Tolkien created, ("Irolas" instead of "Iorlas").

I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Mar 26 2011, 5:22pm)


Garfeimao
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 5:22pm

Post #24 of 149 (2509 views)
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Haldir and the Elves never went to Helm's Deep [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess that would be considered an addition too.


I'm not opposed to them fleshing out Mirkwood and Laketown, if they don't, it will be a very boring set of movies with nameless people not saying a lot because they aren't allowed to have any personality.

Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,


Garfeimao
The orange stripey One



Cruise to Middle-earth


rings7
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 5:37pm

Post #25 of 149 (2491 views)
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Yes, i understand Arwen is not [In reply to] Can't Post

necessarily an addition, we know her background story, which is something i haven't found with Itaril. I googled her and all i find is her description.

So i'm confused. Where does Itaril come from? what book or tale or appendix, what did she do? Unimpressed


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Mar 26 2011, 5:45pm

Post #26 of 149 (900 views)
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Itaril came from... [In reply to] Can't Post

either PJ, Fran, Philipa, or Guillermo, (or all of them), hence why there's so much consternation over the character.

We'll see how that turns out, assuming the part is still in and it's what Sauose is actually up for...(another rumored character is Primula, Frodo's mother, who was created by Tolkien but is not in the books as a character at all.

I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.


Symbelmine
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 5:50pm

Post #27 of 149 (857 views)
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she came from [In reply to] Can't Post

unofficial casting call on January 2010.
She isn't Tolkien's character.She is made up.


willowgreylock
Lorien


Mar 26 2011, 5:54pm

Post #28 of 149 (903 views)
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made up characters [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown OH NO! this is what I was afraid of. Okay I can see some
characters for fill in purposes, say in Mirkwood, Laketown.
But PLEASE not a large role for ROMANTIC purposes for
goodness sake!! That's a horrible and unecessary reason.
I'm not totally excited to see this movie because I'm looking
forward to seeing a great romance, NO, it's a GREAT
ADVENTURE! we all know that, and that's all that's
expected.
I think I'll quit reading about what's going on,
I want to look 4ward to seeing the HOBBIT, without dread or dis-
appointment.


(This post was edited by willowgreylock on Mar 26 2011, 6:02pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Mar 26 2011, 6:04pm

Post #29 of 149 (882 views)
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Symbelmine, that casting call has been pretty much "rebunked" [In reply to] Can't Post

BTW, why do people want these to be EXACTLY like the books? We already have the books. These are the movies? Unsure

I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Mar 26 2011, 6:05pm)


duats
Grey Havens

Mar 26 2011, 6:07pm

Post #30 of 149 (849 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I could ask why people don't want these to be exactly like the book.

The answer for both groups can be simplified down to this: personal preference. There is no right or wrong here, folks.


(This post was edited by duats on Mar 26 2011, 6:07pm)


Symbelmine
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 6:09pm

Post #31 of 149 (840 views)
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casting call [In reply to] Can't Post

I know PJ said the casting call was mostly incorrect.I don't know more details about it.


rings7
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 6:11pm

Post #32 of 149 (861 views)
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You have to be kidding me [In reply to] Can't Post

If she's totally made up from scratch then is a no-no. Really not necessary. Just for casting her? cause to me that would be the only reason, otherwise they would be other actresses considered. This is nonsense. But oh well.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Mar 26 2011, 6:11pm

Post #33 of 149 (832 views)
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Don't recall PJ saying anything about it... [In reply to] Can't Post

The story was just updated on ToRN main page saying that it "inaccurate", but evidence suggest this was simply "damage control", IE Radagast and Drogo have been cast, an actress auditioned for Primula, another is rumored for Itaril...

I wouldn't be shocked if we don't end up seeing "Alfrid", however, (at least not with that name)....

I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.


duats
Grey Havens

Mar 26 2011, 6:14pm

Post #34 of 149 (831 views)
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I'm still holding onto a shred of hope [In reply to] Can't Post

That Itaril was cut (or doesn't even exist), and Ronan is being eyed for Primula Baggins.


Patty
Immortal


Mar 26 2011, 6:41pm

Post #35 of 149 (790 views)
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This is my hope, too. [In reply to] Can't Post

I am trying to keep in mind that sometimes a character has to be created to flesh out a people/villain (Lurtz) or a concept, like the danger to the Rohan people (Morwen and her children). These were successfully done to me, and I guess I should just trust the scriptwriters. But given the talk that this Itaril is a character who "never expected to live any other life than guard, but fell in love with an Elf Lord" sounds like more of a story line, and I really don't want that. If Ronan were to be cast as Primula I wouldn't be concerned.

Permanent address: Into the West

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carrioncrow
Lorien

Mar 26 2011, 7:00pm

Post #36 of 149 (814 views)
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some assumptions [In reply to] Can't Post

If she is a member of the Silvan Elf King's guard, it seems likely that any Elf Lord she "meets" is not a Silvan Elf of Mirkwood (else, she would likely have already met him)

There is alot in the casting sheet setting her up in contrast to non-Sylvan elves.

I'd say This elf maiden together with a Elf Lord of Lorien will have a opposites attract relationship story that will serve as a story device linking the paths of Gandalf/White Council as opposed to Thorin/Bilbo. I imagine the maid and/or the lord will play a role at perhaps

Rivendell during the moon letters discovery
The forest party
The interrogation of Thorin
With the jailors during barrels out of bounds
In any White Council scene
In any action against Dol Guldur
Battle of 5 armies

I do not believe their romance will end happily.


Owain
Tol Eressea


Mar 26 2011, 7:17pm

Post #37 of 149 (838 views)
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There's definitely the potential for that to happen... [In reply to] Can't Post

concerning jealousy of success and all... but I've said it before... Guillermo made the choice to leave.

I am a huge Guillermo Del Toro fan... but there are those (not implying that is you, Sunflower) who literally believe he was forced to leave because of contracts. While honorable that he would want to keep those other contracts... he was also under contract to make The Hobbit films... so I am baffled by that reasoning. What is sad... is that nearly all of those contracts... have dried up or abandoned Guillermo Del Toro... and The Hobbit continues.

While sad, such is the world of film - and frankly the world of business.

Also, Guillermo Del Toro made the decision to take on a film that did not have a green light... in fact... the entire time he devoted to The Hobbit, was without a green light - a not so minor detail.

Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, Phillipa Boyens, and Richard Taylor have invested from the beginning - without a green light. They all have contracts pending on other jobs. And yet they chose to stay.

Is anyone wrong for their respective decision? I can't see how. These are people, passionate and creative, dedicated and determined - all with their own paths.

My hope is that Guillermo will be properly credited and will rise above the misfortune he has seen of late.

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Mar 26 2011, 7:27pm

Post #38 of 149 (831 views)
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IMO, Guillermo leaving was a huge professional misstep... [In reply to] Can't Post

Had he remained and made TH, he would have been working on a project with assured "A-list status" and a massive built-in audience for the first time in his career, and subsequently would have had the clout to make "At the Mountains of Madness" or whatever other project he wished next, (similarly to how LotR allowed PJ to tackle his "dream project" of "King Kong")...however, not only has he now spent three years on two projects to no avail, (one is being made without him, the other is not happening at all for the foreseeable future)...but now, no matter how legitimate the problems were that drove him to his decision to leave TH production, he as obtained a reputation of a "quitter" in the eyes of the entertainment industry, which MAY be partially why Universal was reluctant to green-light a production the size of AtMoM...what if the film went over-schedule and GdT walked away half-way through? Unsure

In any case, it was a tumultuous situation for all involved all the way through, so at least now they're filming...

Sorry for the insane run-on sentence, BTW...Cool

I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Mar 26 2011, 7:29pm)


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Mar 26 2011, 7:37pm

Post #39 of 149 (803 views)
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Just an interesting tidbit... [In reply to] Can't Post

I just read on Deadline that Saiorse Ronan is currently in talks to co-star in Snow White, which comes out in July 2012. Yet another story about dwarves...Smile
I wonder if this will impact her getting a role in The Hobbit?


(This post was edited by Maiarmike on Mar 26 2011, 7:43pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 7:55pm

Post #40 of 149 (756 views)
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There is no more need for Primula than Itaril [In reply to] Can't Post

There could be both as in the casting call. There could be even more we have not heard about.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 7:57pm

Post #41 of 149 (810 views)
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If they populate the woodland realm only with the characters Tolkien mentioned [In reply to] Can't Post

It is going to be awfully empty.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Plurmo
Rohan

Mar 26 2011, 7:58pm

Post #42 of 149 (845 views)
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Sometimes I have the impression [In reply to] Can't Post

that people want to be surprised by that drunk Legolas scene so badly that they consider any discussion of it to be treasonous spoiler making.Laugh


Plurmo
Rohan

Mar 26 2011, 8:03pm

Post #43 of 149 (764 views)
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Yes, that will be interesting. [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, as long as they keep the book characters somewhat intact in personality and relevance I'm not against the addition of colorful (or "darkful") new characters. Not only because they usually are less significant, but also because they are integral to the big surprise feeling of it all.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 8:40pm

Post #44 of 149 (741 views)
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? Rebunked ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Debunked + rebuked ? or just the inverse of debunked?

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Mar 26 2011, 8:47pm

Post #45 of 149 (795 views)
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Peter... [In reply to] Can't Post

...at least in the DVD's, struck me as the more Tolkien fan who wanted to keep things the way he wrote them, or at least try his best to make it work, and Fran and Phillipa seemed like the film adapters who didn't mind changing things at all for the sake of the films. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just as long as it builds characters and drama for a movie, which they did a pretty good job of considering their 17 Oscars or so.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


KAOS82
Rohan


Mar 26 2011, 8:57pm

Post #46 of 149 (762 views)
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I agree with you [In reply to] Can't Post

Me too I don't want to see a love story as in LOTR where Arwen takes too much place imao
I want pure action this time, nevermind if there are not female characters, we have a drake and it needs to talk about the journey to Erebor leaving aside other facts which doesn't matter
I can accept Itaril as the worried Bard's girlfriend but no more than that!!!

TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA & NIENOR NÍNIEL


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Mar 26 2011, 9:03pm

Post #47 of 149 (746 views)
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Unfortunately... [In reply to] Can't Post

...pure action is meaningless if you don't care about the characters or their goals (a la Transformers).

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 9:50pm

Post #48 of 149 (746 views)
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The Hobbit is about personal transformation and the problem of greed. [In reply to] Can't Post

The action is only there as a support structure.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 11:24pm

Post #49 of 149 (735 views)
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All I know is this. . . if they start making folks up, and still manage to miss Glorfindel [In reply to] Can't Post

then it will indeed be HELL RAISING TIME! Nope, nope. You are not going to talk me down on this. None of you is going to talk me down on this one. Its all I can stand and I can't stand no damned more! If random woodelves start getting names and speaking roles, Then Glorfindel needs to be in Rivendell to greet Gandalf and should have his proper seat on The White Council. There are no more ifs ands or buts about it. Mad Mad Mad

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


PattyJB
Rivendell

Mar 26 2011, 11:49pm

Post #50 of 149 (709 views)
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Hear, Hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

And since I watched the new Sherlock Holmes to see Freeman as Watson, I have a new candidate to play Glorfindel.




AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 26 2011, 11:51pm

Post #51 of 149 (745 views)
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I see how that could work. [In reply to] Can't Post

Good looking out, elf scout Wink

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


firebride42
The Shire


Mar 26 2011, 11:55pm

Post #52 of 149 (762 views)
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Totally agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

Benedict Cumberbatch would be an epic Glorfindel. Loved him and Freeman in Sherlock.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 12:21am

Post #53 of 149 (763 views)
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I really do hope they give Glorfindel his place in Rivendell and on The Council. [In reply to] Can't Post

He is one of if not The ONLY person aside from the repeatedly named parties who we know was on The White Council (see Council of Elrond etceteras). They have backwards worked Radagast into The Hobbit (even though he only recieves one brief name mention in the actual book, far too little to actually make a part out of on its own), and I think Glorfindel deserves no less. They didn't clean lift Barliman Butterbur, nor Farmer Maggot, nor Gamling. In the extended they even made room for Lobelia and Otto Sackville-Bagins. . . and Ted Sandyman. . . Ted Damned Sandyman of ALL people! They could and should have given Glorfindel at least a minor diminshed role with a brief cameo at The Council of Elrond. Even if all he said was something as simple as Galdor's "What of Saruman? What is his council to us?" line.

To completely cast him out with the exception of his silent "sighting" cameo in ROTK was a vulgarity. To put added Film Team made up characters in The Hobbit, especially at the Elven havens, and still leave Glorfindel unnamed and mute would be extremely offensive.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by Altaira on Mar 27 2011, 3:19am)


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Mar 27 2011, 12:44am

Post #54 of 149 (730 views)
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Woah, chill pills, man... [In reply to] Can't Post

Glorfindel would have to have some reason to be in The Hobbit, if he is to be featured. He was important in leading armies against Sauron's broader attacks on Middle-Earth, which were of course not shown in LotR films (PJ actually talks about this in the DVD's). As far as Radagast, he's a confidant of Gandalf's and Beorn's, and lives at the edge of Mirkwood, making it a relatively easy choice to include him in the films, considering he also helps Saruman.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"

(This post was edited by Maiarmike on Mar 27 2011, 12:47am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 12:50am

Post #55 of 149 (747 views)
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Chill nothing. I have no intention of chilling on this matter in light of this "additional characters" business [In reply to] Can't Post

The reason is He lives in Rivendell, he is the most powerful Noldo in Rivendell, and the second mightiest pure Noldo/High-Elf remaining in All Middle-Earth next to Galadriel herself, by Tolkien's account, he is a special friend to Gandalf, also by Tolkien's own account, and he is a member of THe White Council, which will be featured in the film. Also he was throughly disresepected by Peter in LOTR, and without good cause. He could at least have had minor speaking cameo status. If they are going to make characters up out of the ether, Elves in particular, or give nameless guards names and backgrounds, they damn well need to show a little respect to this prominent Elf of Rivendell and the Legendarium. Working him in will be less work than even Radaghast. He LIVES in Rivendell, for the sake of Eru.

In Reply To
Glorfindel would have to have some reason to be in The Hobbit, if he is to be featured. He was important in leading armies against Sauron's broader attacks on Middle-Earth, which were of course not shown in LotR films (PJ actually talks about this in the DVD's). As far as Radagast, he's a confidant of Gandalf's, and lives at the edge of Mirkwood, making it a relatively easy choice to include him in the films, considering he also helps Saruman.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 12:55am

Post #56 of 149 (721 views)
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You have made your preferences perfectly clear. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 1:07am

Post #57 of 149 (716 views)
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Good. [In reply to] Can't Post

I stand by them steadfastly.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


lurtz2010
Rohan

Mar 27 2011, 1:07am

Post #58 of 149 (694 views)
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Glorfindel is not needed [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't understand why people get worked up over him not being in LOTR, he meant nothing. If you read between the lines you can clearly see that even Frodo thought him a fool and it's pretty obvious that Gandalf was trying his best not to speak ill of him in the book and I think we could all pick up on how much Gimli hated him aswell. If he had been in the FOTR I'm quite sure that the movie wouldn't have had the same success it had without him, he would've been a character that most audiences would look at in a negative way. I think PJ is aware of this and won't risk adding him into TH.


jrpipik
Rivendell


Mar 27 2011, 1:12am

Post #59 of 149 (698 views)
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Do we know when Glorfindel returned to Middle Earth? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know it's not in LOTR but is in UT or the histories?


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 1:27am

Post #60 of 149 (704 views)
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It isn't clear, and Tolkien gives several possibilities. [In reply to] Can't Post

He says that he may have been sent to aid the remaining Elves in The Second Age, but that it is also possible that, as he was a friend and follower of Olorin The Maia in Valinor, he may have come in The Third Age, with special thought for both Gandalf and The Elves. The first accounts of him outside of The First Age are of his leading a host from Rivendell, and eventually of him driving The Witch-King of Angmar from the field in the battle of Fornost.

In Reply To
I know it's not in LOTR but is in UT or the histories?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


PattyJB
Rivendell

Mar 27 2011, 1:51am

Post #61 of 149 (643 views)
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Regardless of whether you think he is also Glorfindel of Gondolin [In reply to] Can't Post

And I do - We know that he led the elves from Rivendell who fought at the battle of Fornost, III 1974, where the Witch King of Angmar and his forces were defeated, and where Glorfindel made his famous prediction.


FaerieHammer
The Shire


Mar 27 2011, 1:57am

Post #62 of 149 (693 views)
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Um... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I can't understand why people get worked up over him not being in LOTR, he meant nothing. If you read between the lines you can clearly see that even Frodo thought him a fool and it's pretty obvious that Gandalf was trying his best not to speak ill of him in the book and I think we could all pick up on how much Gimli hated him aswell. If he had been in the FOTR I'm quite sure that the movie wouldn't have had the same success it had without him, he would've been a character that most audiences would look at in a negative way. I think PJ is aware of this and won't risk adding him into TH.


I'm new to the forums, and somewhat to LOTR (at least to the books), but I'm reading FOTR as we speak, and Glorfindel is definitely signifigant. He's the one who comes to the aid of Aragorn & the hobbits during the crossing at the Ford of Bruinen. It's his horse Asfaloth that gets Frodo across Bruinen and out of the reaches of the Nazgul, who were driven, "dismayed", to the shore by the Elf-lord. It says in the book that he was a great friend of Gandalf's and, though not specifically named, was part of the White Council. He's WAAAAAYYYYYYY more signifigant than, say, Haldir. I don't know where you're getting your information, but it's certainly not from any of Tolkien's writings.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Mar 27 2011, 4:45am)


duats
Grey Havens

Mar 27 2011, 2:29am

Post #63 of 149 (658 views)
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Absolutely right [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if it were a mere cameo, he'd easily fit.

-Lives in Rivendell.
-One of the most powerful living Elves during the time of The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings.
-Member of the White Council.

There really is no excuse to include a made-up female elf character, and fail to include Glorfindel in some capacity. At least, I can't think of any.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 2:42am

Post #64 of 149 (654 views)
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I've long felt... [In reply to] Can't Post

that TH movies would be a great place to include characters cut from the LotR films, such as Glorfindel, Elladan/Elrohir, Bombadil, Ghan-Buri-Ghan and the Barrow-wights. When we were going to be getting a "Bridge Film", I had even hoped Imrahil would make an appearance in there somewhere!

I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Mar 27 2011, 2:45am)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 2:43am

Post #65 of 149 (611 views)
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Kind of like a land fill.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
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At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 2:46am

Post #66 of 149 (665 views)
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They're there, so why not use them? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 2:50am

Post #67 of 149 (661 views)
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The would serve the same function as actors comming back for cameos. [In reply to] Can't Post

They would just clutter up the movie. Maybe they could just appear after the end credits and take a bow.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Mar 27 2011, 2:50am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 2:53am

Post #68 of 149 (654 views)
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It isn't a matter of need. If it were, a great many more characters would have been left out of the films. [In reply to] Can't Post

Is Otto Proudfoot needed? Is Barliman Butterbur? What of Gamling, Haldir (Haldir who is not even a tenth the Elf that Glorfindel is), Ted Sandyman for God's Sake? None of them are needed, but they add to the films each in their minor way. They do not harm it for neophytes, and for all those who have read the books, their inclusion is like the welcome faces of old friends, and proper nods to those who are part of the LOTR experience. And not one of them, not ONE of them, is as significant as Glorfindel, nor as august, nor do they have such a list of noble and great deeds to their credit. Yet they all received at least a gentle nod, enough to become part of the permanent history of the definitive ( at least for the foreseeable future) filmic account of these works., while Glorfindel was shamefully snubbed.

And what is this nonsense about Frodo thinking him a fool? Where the hell does that come from? I would ask you to cite something, but as no such thing exists, I know it would never be forthcoming. One would have to read the lines of a different text in order to come up with what you are suggesting. Perhaps you are confusing Glorfindel with Galdor, Erestor or Gildor. But Glorfindel a fool? Wtf. Glorfindel of whom the text speaks, sitting to the left of Elrond as Gandalf sat to his right, "Glorfindel was tall and straight. . . his face fair and young, his eyes keen and bright and full of joy. On his brow sat wisdom and in his hand was strength." Gimli never even has any interaction with Glorfindel, so how you came to the conclusion that he hated him is beyond me. I don't think there is anyone on this entire forum who has the notion that Gimli bore any personal dislike towards Glorfindel. It is Legolas who Gloin has an outburst towards during the council, if you recall.

And on The Council, Glorfindel is supportive of Gandalf, in regards to Iarwain, and comments on how Saruman was on a twisted path already at The White Council. . . but he does not say anything to annoy Gandalf. It is Galdor and Erestor who make comments that may be said to have briefly annoyed Gandalf, or at least which provoked a mild reprimand from him.

People want to see Glorfindel for the same reason some want to see Legolas etc. He is, while minor in his page time, a significant figure in the Legendarium. He is a close friend to Gandalf, by Tolkien's own account, and also the mightiest of the Noldor Elves in Rivendell. He is the mightiest of the Male Noldor whom we encounter, one of the few High-Elves at all active in LOTR, AND the second greatest of the pure Noldor left in Middle-Earth aside from Galadriel herself. If not for his having driven several of The Nazgul from the bridge at Mitheniel, Aragorn and the hobbits likely would not have made it so far as they did after the attack on Weathertop. There is NO PLACE IN THE TEXT where Gandalf seems to be struggling to avoid speaking ill of Glorfindel. All that he says of him is praise worthy, and the same goes for Frodo. You seem to be just making things up out of an unexplained hostility towards this character. Glorfindel drove The Witch-King of Angmar from the field of battle in one of the more significant battles of The Third Age. . . neither Haldir nor Legolas can claim anything so auspicious, and I will be surprised (and troubled) if Itaril is able to match such a feat.

In Reply To
I can't understand why people get worked up over him not being in LOTR, he meant nothing. If you read between the lines you can clearly see that even Frodo thought him a fool and it's pretty obvious that Gandalf was trying his best not to speak ill of him in the book and I think we could all pick up on how much Gimli hated him aswell. If he had been in the FOTR I'm quite sure that the movie wouldn't have had the same success it had without him, he would've been a character that most audiences would look at in a negative way. I think PJ is aware of this and won't risk adding him into TH.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 2:54am

Post #69 of 149 (641 views)
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Not if they could be worked into the plot... [In reply to] Can't Post

Glorfindel - On the White Council, fights at the Battle of Dol Guldur

Bombadil - Saves Bilbo and the Dwarves from the Barrow-wights before the encounter with the Stone Trolls, (alternativly, could save Gandafl's friends in the "B-plot")

Elladan or Elrohir - In Rivdendell, aides Gandalf in his quest against the Necromancer

Ghan-Buri-Ghan - In Mirkwood, helps Gandalf and his allies against the Necromancer

I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 2:56am

Post #70 of 149 (611 views)
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He would not clutter the movie, Kangi. [In reply to] Can't Post

He lives in Rivendell, consels Elrond, is close in friendship with Gandalf, and is on The White Council. If Radagast is not clutter, and if Haldir did not clutter LOTR, then Glorfindel would not clutter The Hobbit by merely being seen, and briefly speaking. Frown (this is the equivalent of rolling eys with an angry, disgusted expression).

In Reply To
They would just clutter up the movie. Maybe they could just appear after the end credits and take a bow.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 2:59am

Post #71 of 149 (629 views)
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Again the same is true about every actor in Lord of the Rings. [In reply to] Can't Post

If you can shoehorn them into the plot why can't everyone come back. Result...Star Wars the second trilogy.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 3:02am

Post #72 of 149 (631 views)
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There's a reason they didn't name most of the Rivendell council on film [In reply to] Can't Post

Extra names and faces confuse casual movie audiences. As much as many fans hate it, it's the reason Glorfindel was cut in the first place, along with Imrahil, the sons of Elrond, Beregond, etc. I suspect that most of the members of the white council will go unnamed for the same reason.

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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 3:03am

Post #73 of 149 (620 views)
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Well I maintain it could work... [In reply to] Can't Post

we know they're expanding the scope of the films, the new material will have to be populated by someone!

BTW, seeing Chewbacca, Boba Fett, ETC again is not the same thing as seeing characters from the books for the first time.

I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.


Owain
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 3:06am

Post #74 of 149 (610 views)
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I would have to agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not just because audiences would be confused... because I think the Tolkien fan base could keep track... but also because there is no way to do all of the characters justice (even with a simpler story). Someone is going to always feel that this one or that one got slighted in some way. I think they try to find the soul of the story and the pivotal characters, and then work around that. Sometimes characters and their actions get merged so that the story get's told, but in that compressed manor that Kangi Ska referred to earlier...

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 3:07am

Post #75 of 149 (673 views)
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Might as well say this here [In reply to] Can't Post

just to get it out there for all time...

When I make predictions about TH (in jest or otherwise) since GDT isn't around to fight for the elements he wanted to see in the film, I am commenting on the film that PJ and co are making. Yes it would be nice if, by and large, G's vision for TH remains intact. But PJ has the final say now, it is his film, and that is the film I am talking about.

Films change directors all the time. For better or worse who can say? Out of respect for the effort that is going into this thing, as well as for GDT, all we can really comment on now, or make predictions about, is the film PJ is making.

Heart


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 3:09am

Post #76 of 149 (718 views)
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This is not so in even distribution. [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't need a shoehorn for Glorfindel. You just let him show up where he would be expected to be found anyway, and give him a line or two. He lives in Rivendell, and he is on The White Council.

Juxtapose this to some of these other parties you allude to:

Merry: Not born, period.
Pippin:Not born, period.
Sam: see above
Boromir: See above
Faramir: See above
Theoden AND his sister's children: see above
Tom Bombadil: By Gandalf's account, he would not have come to any of the places we otherwise might think to find him. . . a council of The Powers of Good remaining in Middle-Earth, for example.
Denethor: far away in Gondor, which does not come into this tale

Should I go on. Frankly, Glorfindel fits in more easily than Frodo. At least you don't have to take a break from the timline of The Narrative to encounter him.

In Reply To
If you can shoehorn them into the plot why can't everyone come back. Result...Star Wars the second trilogy.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 3:09am

Post #77 of 149 (705 views)
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It is not that I am against Glorfindel personally, [In reply to] Can't Post

I just can't see getting that excited about something that will not be effected no matter how hard you scream. It did not help Bombadil (One of my favorite characters). Weather or not any peripheral character shows up in the Hobbit has pretty much been decided. I do not view the omission of Bombadil or Glorfindel or Imrahil as a personal insult. They are just omissions based on expediency as viewed by the director.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 3:18am

Post #78 of 149 (676 views)
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None are suggesting that every concil member be named. [In reply to] Can't Post

We are speaking of an Elf more consequential than Galdor or Erestor. And frankly, in terms of deeds performed within The War of The Ring, more significant and consequential than Haldir, Elladan, Elrohir, Beregond . .. even Legolas for that matter, despite the latter's far greater page time and involvement with The Fellowship, but forsooth, what deed does our beloved Legolas accomplish that holds water when compared to Glorfindel essentially saving Frodo from being captured by The Nine or to his driving of The Witchking of Angmar from the field of battle at Fornost?

I'll tell you what, you tell me how working in Otto Proudfoot, Farmer Maggot, Gamling, Butterbur, the younf lord who touts Denethor's foresight to Gandalf, the Elf who asks Arwen to stay with the departing Elves, Wulf, and in The Extended, Lobelia, Otto and Ted Sandyman, or how the vast expansion on the role of Haldir, were in any way more appropriate, more essential, or more fitting than it would have been to have given Glorfindel the cameo and brief one or two liner that he so deeply deserved, and further tell me why all of those characters deserved inclusion and acknowlegement in this film series more than Glorfindel did, and I will back off of this argument and buy you a soft drink and a pretzel.

In Reply To
Extra names and faces confuse casual movie audiences. As much as many fans hate it, it's the reason Glorfindel was cut in the first place, along with Imrahil, the sons of Elrond, Beregond, etc. I suspect that most of the members of the white council will go unnamed for the same reason.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 3:32am

Post #79 of 149 (669 views)
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Here is the difference between Glorfindel and Bombadil [In reply to] Can't Post

They would have had to have worked to make a place for Bombadil. I think it could have been done, but I can see why they didn't do it. It would have required a loop out of the main story line. To put him at Elrond's council would have contradicted what Gandalf said of him in the book. It is really hard, not impossible but very difficult, to make any space for him in the film of LOTR without really going out on a limb.

Not so Glorfindel. You really had to work to keep him out of the film. He Belonged at The Concil of Elrond ( I sometimes imagine he was one of The two more respectable blonde Elves There. . . the one who did the least silent yelling at the dwarves Wink ). It would have been easier than sipping iced tea on a hot summer day to give him some minor line at the council, the same way other minor characters were allowed small lines, and in the same way that completely fabricated for film characters were allowed minor speaking parts. It would not have been out of place, it would not have required any sidetracking of the storyline, nor any shoehorning, AND, it would not have confused or teased characters not familliar with the cannon any more than the presence of Butterbur, Farmer Maggot, Gamling or Faramir's lieutenant in Ithillien confused or caused consternation. Yet millions of Glorfindel fans would have felt a surge of joy knowing one of their much loved characters, and one of the more legendary figures in LOTR, had been given his proper and lasting film moment. To deny him this, especially in light of the acknowlegements and even expansions in a few cases that other characters of less significance were given , is nothing less than a foul and eggregious act of disrespect to his character, and a thum in the eye of those who are fans of him.

In Reply To
I just can't see getting that excited about something that will not be effected no matter how hard you scream. It did not help Bombadil (One of my favorite characters). Weather or not any peripheral character shows up in the Hobbit has pretty much been decided. I do not view the omission of Bombadil or Glorfindel or Imrahil as a personal insult. They are just omissions based on expediency as viewed by the director.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Mar 27 2011, 3:34am)


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Mar 27 2011, 3:36am

Post #80 of 149 (668 views)
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I feel... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the same way, really. If they have something cool for him to do, and they explore his character, then go for it. Otherwise, it's not life and death for me, and most importantly, not for the casual audience who will make up most of the ticket sales.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 3:43am

Post #81 of 149 (714 views)
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I just feel that, especially in light of the fact that so much was hijacked from him [In reply to] Can't Post

in the first film (understandably hijacked, but it doesn't change the fact that the Elf was robbed and then some), and in light of the near dozen cameos for less consequential characters, that it would do more good than harm to give him at least a brief cameo at Rivendell/on The White Council. It would please many, and I cannot see it offending anyone. And it would be a simple and minor enough thing that the casual viewing audience wouldn't even notice it. Leaving him out of the film pentalogy steps on a great many more toes than giving him a fleeting cameo line could ever possibly manage.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Eldaria
Rivendell


Mar 27 2011, 3:53am

Post #82 of 149 (731 views)
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Who was this Elve? [In reply to] Can't Post

    
I never agreed with the choice of actor they used to depict Glorfindel in the Decipher card set. No offence to the actor, but he was much too young and I don't feel that there is anything regal about his look. The website 'Glorfindel of Imladris' posted this picture from LOTR (? ROTK) with a possible candidate for Glorfindel - beautiful face, tall, elegant - the way he carries himself, he projects wisdom and nobility. I too was upset that Glorfindel didn't have a speaking part in the movie, but I believe that this is him, nonetheless.



“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”

(This post was edited by Eldaria on Mar 27 2011, 3:54am)


Owain
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 3:58am

Post #83 of 149 (673 views)
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The guy on the right is not the same... [In reply to] Can't Post

as the two on the left... just saying.

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Eldaria
Rivendell


Mar 27 2011, 4:25am

Post #84 of 149 (670 views)
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clarification [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The guy on the right is not the same.......as the two on the left... just saying.

Ummm ..... I know.

The guy (2 photos) on the right is the Decipher card who I think is not even close to being a decent Glorfindel.

The guy on the left is the one I'm asking about. He was in ROTK, although nameless, and I think he is/was/could be Glorfindel.

“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”


lurtz2010
Rohan

Mar 27 2011, 4:27am

Post #85 of 149 (644 views)
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So if he's not in TH you'll actually be quite upset by that? [In reply to] Can't Post

How can a character of such unimportance mean so much? If they got rid of him in LOTR then I doubt they'll throw him in TH which he isn't even suppose to be in. If they add him to the white council stuff then I still think that he will be frowned upon by most people not matter what type of role he plays. I bet if someone made a facebook page called "Keep Glorfindel out of The Hobbit" it would get over 10,000 likes in the first day.


Owain
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 4:29am

Post #86 of 149 (673 views)
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None of your pics are labeled... [In reply to] Can't Post

kind of hard to tell what you're talking about... makes more sense now.

No offense meant.

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 4:30am

Post #87 of 149 (646 views)
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People should not play with matches around Dynamite.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 27 2011, 4:31am

Post #88 of 149 (677 views)
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General Comment ---> It's time to take a deep breath and agree to disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread has gotten *way* too emotional in spots with many edits necessary. If it continues down this road, it will be locked.

We have a loooong way to go before we start hearing of actual additions and deletions of characters. If we can't even discuss potential changes, I can't imagine how dealing with real changes will be, but rest assured it will be discussed in a level-headed, respectful manner. Cursing and disrespecting other poster won't be tolerated here.

Thanks,

Altaira


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

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(This post was edited by Altaira on Mar 27 2011, 4:43am)


lurtz2010
Rohan

Mar 27 2011, 4:35am

Post #89 of 149 (659 views)
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Sorry but I love watching dynamite explode // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Eldaria
Rivendell


Mar 27 2011, 4:35am

Post #90 of 149 (667 views)
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newbie here ... still learning. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
kind of hard to tell what you're talking about... makes more sense now.

No offense meant.

None taken Evil

“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”


Owain
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 4:35am

Post #91 of 149 (621 views)
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Looking for fire extinguisher.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 4:36am

Post #92 of 149 (641 views)
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She has arrived.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
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At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Owain
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 4:36am

Post #93 of 149 (673 views)
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The more the merrier! Thanks for the pics! [In reply to] Can't Post

And welcome to TheOneRing!

Smile

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Eldaria
Rivendell


Mar 27 2011, 5:15am

Post #94 of 149 (615 views)
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Thanks for the welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

Have been lurking for a while. I thought joining the community here would help pass the time until Dec 2012 and no doubt I'd learn a thing or two.

I was so blown away by PJ's amazing adaptation - every glorious second of it, and I'm anticipating the wonders of TH as much as anyone. My only problem was the omissions in LOTR, particularly Radagast. And Glorfindel, Elladan & Elrohir. Well, Cirdan & Imrahil too. And Fredegar. And Folco and .....

I'll guess I'll be happy with whatever PJ gives us, no matter what he includes or cuts. And no matter how long the movies are, even if they run over 4 or 5 hours, I'll still come away wanting more.

“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”


Owain
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 5:22am

Post #95 of 149 (607 views)
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Glad u joined! [In reply to] Can't Post

I know the feeling... I can't get enough of the films/booms either!

Smile

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Owain
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 5:43am

Post #96 of 149 (617 views)
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Haha! *books* [In reply to] Can't Post

Not booms... Silly me.

Oh dearLaugh

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 5:55am

Post #97 of 149 (682 views)
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In ROTK there is an Elf behind Elrond, standing right at his shoulder, actually [In reply to] Can't Post

And I and many others here have always felt that this was the perfect Glorfindel. He is not in your above pics, but some have posted his pic before. I think the cast description of him is as Gildor, but it seems like an error. The younger Elf seems more fitting to Gildor. The Elf who stands, smiling, radiant and exuding belevolent strength beside Elrond in Minas Tirith. . . THAT guy is amazingly Glorfindel by my reckoning. Do you know the one to whom I am reffereing?

In Reply To

I never agreed with the choice of actor they used to depict Glorfindel in the Decipher card set. No offence to the actor, but he was much too young and I don't feel that there is anything regal about his look. The website 'Glorfindel of Imladris' posted this picture from LOTR (? ROTK) with a possible candidate for Glorfindel - beautiful face, tall, elegant - the way he carries himself, he projects wisdom and nobility. I too was upset that Glorfindel didn't have a speaking part in the movie, but I believe that this is him, nonetheless.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Eldaria
Rivendell


Mar 27 2011, 7:20am

Post #98 of 149 (642 views)
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Glorfindel the Gorgeous [In reply to] Can't Post

"And I and many others here have always felt that this was the perfect Glorfindel. He is not in your above pics, but some have posted his pic before. I think the cast description of him is as Gildor, but it seems like an error. The younger Elf seems more fitting to Gildor. The Elf who stands, smiling, radiant and exuding belevolent strength beside Elrond in Minas Tirith. . . THAT guy is amazingly Glorfindel by my reckoning. Do you know the one to whom I am reffereing?"


I know of whom you speak Wink

I can understand people thinking that Gildor might actually be Glorfindel, especially seeing as how he was with Elrond. But for me personally, he doesn't rank high enough on my scale of Elven-ess - Figwit being about a 5, Erestor a 6, Gildor a 7. My Glorifindel, (in the photo above - riding the horse), is about a 9.5, only because he didn't speak. Besides, I think he's deliciously gorgeous - as Elves go.

I also think, IMHO, that he, of any other Elve, would be the one entrusted with Arwen's safety as she travelled to the Grey Havens. That's why it makes sense to me that he is Glorfindel. But I would have expected him to accompany her back to Rivendell.

“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”


jrpipik
Rivendell


Mar 27 2011, 11:46am

Post #99 of 149 (584 views)
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No reason not to include Glorfindel then. [In reply to] Can't Post

If he was there, he could easily be part of the movie.

In Reply To
He says that he may have been sent to aid the remaining Elves in The Second Age, but that it is also possible that, as he was a friend and follower of Olorin The Maia in Valinor, he may have come in The Third Age, with special thought for both Gandalf and The Elves. The first accounts of him outside of The First Age are of his leading a host from Rivendell, and eventually of him driving The Witch-King of Angmar from the field in the battle of Fornost.

In Reply To
I know it's not in LOTR but is in UT or the histories?




jrpipik
Rivendell


Mar 27 2011, 11:57am

Post #100 of 149 (600 views)
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Lurtz2010 is pulling our collective leg. [In reply to] Can't Post

No need to go to such lengths to disprove what he's saying. He's just joking around to get our backs up.

In Reply To
And what is this nonsense about Frodo thinking him a fool? Where the hell does that come from? I would ask you to cite something, but as no such thing exists, I know it would never be forthcoming. One would have to read the lines of a different text in order to come up with what you are suggesting. Perhaps you are confusing Glorfindel with Galdor, Erestor or Gildor. But Glorfindel a fool? Wtf. Glorfindel of whom the text speaks, sitting to the left of Elrond as Gandalf sat to his right, "Glorfindel was tall and straight. . . his face fair and young, his eyes keen and bright and full of joy. On his brow sat wisdom and in his hand was strength." Gimli never even has any interaction with Glorfindel, so how you came to the conclusion that he hated him is beyond me. I don't think there is anyone on this entire forum who has the notion that Gimli bore any personal dislike towards Glorfindel. It is Legolas who Gloin has an outburst towards during the council, if you recall.

And on The Council, Glorfindel is supportive of Gandalf, in regards to Iarwain, and comments on how Saruman was on a twisted path already at The White Council. . . but he does not say anything to annoy Gandalf. It is Galdor and Erestor who make comments that may be said to have briefly annoyed Gandalf, or at least which provoked a mild reprimand from him.

People want to see Glorfindel for the same reason some want to see Legolas etc. He is, while minor in his page time, a significant figure in the Legendarium. He is a close friend to Gandalf, by Tolkien's own account, and also the mightiest of the Noldor Elves in Rivendell. He is the mightiest of the Male Noldor whom we encounter, one of the few High-Elves at all active in LOTR, AND the second greatest of the pure Noldor left in Middle-Earth aside from Galadriel herself. If not for his having driven several of The Nazgul from the bridge at Mitheniel, Aragorn and the hobbits likely would not have made it so far as they did after the attack on Weathertop. There is NO PLACE IN THE TEXT where Gandalf seems to be struggling to avoid speaking ill of Glorfindel. All that he says of him is praise worthy, and the same goes for Frodo. You seem to be just making things up out of an unexplained hostility towards this character. Glorfindel drove The Witch-King of Angmar from the field of battle in one of the more significant battles of The Third Age. . . neither Haldir nor Legolas can claim anything so auspicious, and I will be surprised (and troubled) if Itaril is able to match such a feat.

In Reply To
I can't understand why people get worked up over him not being in LOTR, he meant nothing. If you read between the lines you can clearly see that even Frodo thought him a fool and it's pretty obvious that Gandalf was trying his best not to speak ill of him in the book and I think we could all pick up on how much Gimli hated him aswell. If he had been in the FOTR I'm quite sure that the movie wouldn't have had the same success it had without him, he would've been a character that most audiences would look at in a negative way. I think PJ is aware of this and won't risk adding him into TH.




DrDeath153
Lorien

Mar 27 2011, 1:01pm

Post #101 of 149 (724 views)
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Cult Characters [In reply to] Can't Post

The absence of Glorfindel has never been something i've felt particularly strongly about because he was fundamentally moribund to the story of Lord of the Rings. Whatever his significance in the wider story and whatever his might and power and all the rest, those qualities did not qualify him for inclusion in the film. Now i know you've ranted on and on about how other minor characters got cameo roles, but to be honest, they didn't: in the vast majority of cases they were simply assigned names from the book either in the script or through the decipher trading cards, beyond that in many cases there was little else to link them to the characters from the book those names referred to, it was simply a way of giving them an identity beyond 'Council Elf 1' or 'Rohan soldier 5'. A good example of this is Gamling, who is a good generation younger than his book counterpart and is not a captain at helm's dike but rather Theoden's personal valet.

Obviously some of them did match (or could by the book-familiar audience could represent) their namesake characters, but they were not true representations of them, they were, much like these proposed new hobbit characters are predicted as being, simply there to populate scenes. So if there is an elven extra either from LotR or from the forthcoming Hobbit films they decide to slap the name Glorfindel onto, that's fine (extra points if they pick a blonde elf), but it won't matter if they don't to me because without further characterisation that identifies them specifically as Glorfindel, it will just be a hollow (but not unwelcome) gesture- the character you know would no more be in the film than if they had used the name on a man of dale or an elf of mirkwood.

Dr Death


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 2:32pm

Post #102 of 149 (740 views)
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Ta da! (link inside) [In reply to] Can't Post

The Frame Cap Library is great for tracking down moments like these.

http://www.framecaplib.com/...es/rotk/rotk2409.htm

My LiveJournal
My Costuming Site
TORn's Costume Discussions Archive


sphdle1
Gondor


Mar 27 2011, 2:53pm

Post #103 of 149 (712 views)
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Some of the best or memorable characters in a movie adation are the ones made up [In reply to] Can't Post

Watching the making of Harry Potter and the Prisons from Azkaban, JK Rowling said she wished she had made up and had in her books the talking shrunken heads. Good comic relief if nothing else.

sphdle1

"You shall not pass!"


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Mar 27 2011, 4:40pm

Post #104 of 149 (704 views)
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The film Castaway... [In reply to] Can't Post

..included a completely isolated character for almost the entire film. I think it is not particularly difficult to pull that off for this short sequence.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 5:10pm

Post #105 of 149 (713 views)
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But these days, when people want "Action-Action-Action", [In reply to] Can't Post

it becomes hard to deal with what seems like a dead spot.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Flagg
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2011, 5:27pm

Post #106 of 149 (689 views)
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I disagree. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Social Network

Release date: 1st October, 2010
Gross revenue: $224,583,810
Action: none


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 5:42pm

Post #107 of 149 (675 views)
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Where was the dead spot in Social Network? & [In reply to] Can't Post

I never realized that Social Network was a fantasy action adventure movie.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 27 2011, 7:58pm

Post #108 of 149 (625 views)
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That is the one. [In reply to] Can't Post

My thanks. THAT is the look of a mighty elf lord.

In Reply To
The Frame Cap Library is great for tracking down moments like these.

http://www.framecaplib.com/...es/rotk/rotk2409.htm


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Eldaria
Rivendell


Mar 27 2011, 8:00pm

Post #109 of 149 (654 views)
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Glorious Glorfindel [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the link, Arwen's Daughter.

Yes, your guy could be Glorfindel. But I still think my guy is cuter Tongue

Yum.



“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”


FaerieHammer
The Shire


Mar 28 2011, 1:35am

Post #110 of 149 (622 views)
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Yeah... [In reply to] Can't Post

but even a brief cameo wouldn't be hard to do. Why come up with different characters to insert when we have an abundance of minor characters that could easily fit the bill for whatever PJ's planning? And as to the audience's confusion, all they really need to know about Glorfindel is that he's good buddies with Gandalf, he's a high Elf of great power, and he's on the White Council. 'Nuff said.

And @ Eldaria : now that is a mighty pretty Elf Wink


(This post was edited by FaerieHammer on Mar 28 2011, 1:37am)


lurtz2010
Rohan

Mar 28 2011, 1:59am

Post #111 of 149 (600 views)
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How about they just keep Glorfindel out of the movies [In reply to] Can't Post

He seems to be nothing but trouble now and I think most audiences will be shaking their heads if he is included in TH so it would be safer to leave him out or even replace him again with another elf who could be part of the White Council.


Tseon
Registered User

Mar 28 2011, 2:47am

Post #112 of 149 (603 views)
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Glorfindel [In reply to] Can't Post

In my newbie eyes, I think one of the solutions for this Glonrfindel situation would be: Itaril could fall for Glorfindel. What you guys think of that?

That way he wouldn't just be a simple cameo, would have some development, and there would be an interesting reason for Itaril to show up in this story. But that's just my opinion....


lurtz2010
Rohan

Mar 28 2011, 2:52am

Post #113 of 149 (597 views)
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or Itaril could be replacing Glorfindel's role completely [In reply to] Can't Post

I never really thought of that but that makes perfect sense, but I guess all we can do at this point is hope.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 28 2011, 2:56am

Post #114 of 149 (581 views)
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You know that might just be the answer. [In reply to] Can't Post

Now why would the Big "G" be at the woodland realm?

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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lurtz2010
Rohan

Mar 28 2011, 2:58am

Post #115 of 149 (585 views)
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He shouldn't be anywhere // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 28 2011, 3:02am

Post #116 of 149 (590 views)
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Where is this coming from and where is it going? [In reply to] Can't Post

A possibly non-existent character(Itaril) replacing one (Glorfindel) that is not in the book that is being adapted. My head is spinning.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 28 2011, 3:14am

Post #117 of 149 (563 views)
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Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Twould be a simple matter. I won't extrapolate, but this really only makes sense. As to Dr. Deaths commentary. . . if an Elf is on the Council, fits the general paramaters of what one would expect with Glorfindel, speaks a line and is given that name in credit etc. He will be as much Glorfindel as the barman at The Prancing Pony was Barliman Butterbur, as Lobelia and Otto in EE FOTR were. . . well, Lobelia and Otto, and so forth. It would not be the same as if they gave the name to a dwarf. The one would be an acknowledgement of a known character. The other would be shifting a name for purposes unknown. There is no need to fill in his entire back history, and he becomes no less himself for it not being labouriously detailed, so long as he is represented in keeping with what the average reader would expect to find based on the books (I.E. Golden haired, majesterial, in Rivendell, friendly with Gandalf, on The White Council). We don't get the full text offered history of any character in the film, even the main ones, but Elrond does not cease to be Elrond because the film never gets into his Father, his twin, or his founding of Imladris. In regards to a Glorfindel cameo Those who know, would get it, appreciate the nod, and move forward. Those who don't, see just another majestic Elf lord, and loose nothing, any more than they lost for encountering the other minor cameos. As with so many other nods to the texts in the films, minor Cameos, name drops, chapter title refferences et al, those who are familliar will smile and appreciate the homage to the source material and the characters and events therein, without any shoehorning or sidetracking required. It would please many while harming none, and and more importantly without damaging or derailing the films.

In Reply To
but even a brief cameo wouldn't be hard to do. Why come up with different characters to insert when we have an abundance of minor characters that could easily fit the bill for whatever PJ's planning? And as to the audience's confusion, all they really need to know about Glorfindel is that he's good buddies with Gandalf, he's a high Elf of great power, and he's on the White Council. 'Nuff said.

And @ Eldaria : now that is a mighty pretty Elf Wink


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


lurtz2010
Rohan

Mar 28 2011, 3:17am

Post #118 of 149 (587 views)
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Well there's been alot of talk about this Itaril [In reply to] Can't Post

Assuming that this character that they have invented is actually real then I just thought that a good way to work her into the story would be to replace her with Glorfindel's role in the White Council. Arwen replaced him in LOTR so having Itaril replace him in TH seems like the most logical thing to do and I think most people will be very thankful if this happens.


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Mar 28 2011, 3:23am

Post #119 of 149 (569 views)
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Doesn't really make much sense to me... [In reply to] Can't Post

...to have Itaril replace anybody, but that's just me. Itaril most likely will not come anywhere near the secret White Council, anyways, besides maybe fighting in the siege of Dol Guldur. By the way, I notice you keep saying people will be thankful for Glorfindel to not be in the story, why so? Did he pee in your cheerios at some point?...lol Tongue

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 28 2011, 3:25am

Post #120 of 149 (605 views)
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But Glorfindle's role on th White Council is not confirmed by Tolkien as far as I know. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have heard conjecture as to why he had to be a participant but there appears to be no way to know for sure. So now...Crazy

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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lurtz2010
Rohan

Mar 28 2011, 3:29am

Post #121 of 149 (580 views)
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Ok then tell that to the people who say he needs to be shown in TH [In reply to] Can't Post

If he's not even confirmed to be part of the White Council then I think it's safe to say we'll never see him on film... that's worthy of a sigh of relief.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 28 2011, 3:37am

Post #122 of 149 (576 views)
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I really think it is not worth getting excited about either way. [In reply to] Can't Post

Glorfindil is in...
Glorfindil is out...

He is a minor character in the Lord of the Rings and is not in "The Hobbit's" text. It truly is irrelevant to me if he has a cameo. But if it makes someone happy I hope they show & name him. I really do not want to hear about his unjust treatment for all of the rest of my life.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Mar 28 2011, 3:38am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 28 2011, 3:40am

Post #123 of 149 (569 views)
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It is largely in his own commetary. [In reply to] Can't Post

In Fellowship, at The Council of Elrond, he speaks of former councils, and as one in attendance at them. At several points he refferences prior meetings of The White Council, even going so far as to comment about Saruman at earlier meetings of The White Council (" It is clear now that, even at The Council, his feet were already on a crooked path. He knew The Ring was not lost forever. He only wished us to think so"). He is the only Elf Lord in attendance (aside from Elrond) to do so. Recall too that Gandalf says several times that "some here will remember" concerning things that were debated and discussed at those White Council meetings. He doesn't say, "Elrond will recall," he says some, which is plural. We know no one at The Council of Elrond were present at those meetings aside from Gandalf, Elrond and some of The Elf Lords, of whom only Glorfindel, Erestor, Galdor are named. The "some here" cannot reffer to Cirdan, Saruman, or Galadriel, the only other persons named by Simarillion as being on The White Council. Also, of Erestor and Galdor, Tolkien specifically spells out in other writings (Peoples of Middle-Earth for example), that Glorfindel is an elf of far greater wisdom and power than are either of these, and is indeed the mightiest of The Noldo dwelling in Rivendell. Combine this with other side writings of Tolkien, and the fact that alongside the prior named members of The White Council there were "Other Lords of The Eldar," and Glorfindel's seat, at least from a narrative standpoint, is secured. If any Elf Lord other than Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel are going to be represented in the film version of the council, Glorfindel is by far the most proper candidate. Can you really imagine him loosing his seat to Galdor?

Eldaria, warm welcome to you. I meant to respond further, but forgot in the wake of reading and replying to other commentary. The pics you posted were great. I still put my vote behind the Minas Tirith Elf, however. For three reasons. First, his placement and expression suggest a strong familiarity with Elrond himself. Also, while I do not pretend that he is more fair of face than the other Elf Lords presented, he seems more, to my thought, to exude the sense of majesty and power one would expect of Glorfindel. He looks like someone who could have silenced the laughter of The Nazgul Lord and sent The Witch King of Angmar fleeing from those battle fields in the long ago years of The North.

In Reply To
I have heard conjecture as to why he had to be a participant but there appears to be no way to know for sure. So now...Crazy


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Mar 28 2011, 3:46am)


lurtz2010
Rohan

Mar 28 2011, 3:50am

Post #124 of 149 (579 views)
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Trust me... very few people will be happy if he's in [In reply to] Can't Post

As for Itaril though I trust PJ and if he thinks the movies need a female elf to play a larger role then I say he should do it. She might become a character that even the most Tolkien purists will fall in love with.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 28 2011, 3:51am

Post #125 of 149 (556 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

"It's never stated explicitly that Glorfindel was a member of the Council, but his rank would seem to imply that he warranted membership. At the very least, he had knowledge of many of the Council's secrets, and was ready to aid it in its policies." Encyclopedia of Arda

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 28 2011, 4:08am

Post #126 of 149 (641 views)
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Again I say that the possibility of Itaril does not excite me either way. [In reply to] Can't Post

She can be a figment of the web or a character invented by the script writers for The Hobbit. All I can say about the character's possible presence is: if she is in the movie I hope the role is a minor supporting role and it is acted and handled well.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Mar 28 2011, 4:12am

Post #127 of 149 (635 views)
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I share your hopes. [In reply to] Can't Post

If it indeed happens to be true, and PJ et al. remain adamant about her being in the film, they must have good reason, so I can only trust them on this, as they are very conscious about moving the main narrative forward, no doubt.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


FaerieHammer
The Shire


Mar 28 2011, 4:55am

Post #128 of 149 (656 views)
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Has some potential [In reply to] Can't Post

Like any good sucker for a love story, I think it would be nice. It would have to be downplayed though. Probably a lot. You don't want people complaining about taking up unnecessary space (and their complaints are valid, though the entire Hobbit does span over two full films). It would give Glorfindel a chance to develop in the eyes of the viewers (flashbacks, anyone?) and find out more about Itaril in the process, so PJ wouldn't have to go out on tangent to explain what the heck she's doing in the movie. It would be relevant, at least to the romance subplot (though I hope she doesn't have any kind of a major role. There are too many characters actaully within TH already deserving of that).

Eh. I guess we'll see.

“All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost. Deep roots are not reached by the frost. Renewed be the blade that was broken. The crownless again shall be king.”

(This post was edited by FaerieHammer on Mar 28 2011, 5:01am)


FaerieHammer
The Shire


Mar 28 2011, 4:59am

Post #129 of 149 (612 views)
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I know I'D be happy [In reply to] Can't Post

to see him in the films. There are plenty of people who agree. And if some don't expressly want him, those same people will not object to him being in the movie. What is it about him that you don't like, anyway?

“All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost. Deep roots are not reached by the frost. Renewed be the blade that was broken. The crownless again shall be king.”


Symbelmine
Rohan


Mar 28 2011, 6:05pm

Post #130 of 149 (587 views)
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I would be happy if Glorfindel was in. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't believe only very few people would be happy.I think Glorfindel is quite popular and favorite among lovers of Tolkien's Middle Earth and many people would love to see him in the movie.
As for Itaril it's exactly the opposite.Many people don't want her in the movie or hope she won't have a big part in the movie.


Symbelmine
Rohan


Mar 28 2011, 6:09pm

Post #131 of 149 (580 views)
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no please [In reply to] Can't Post

No any Glorfindel/Itaril love story.
If they really need to put some romance into this movie better create itaril/another made up elf pairing and leave canon characters alone.
That's my opinion.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Mar 28 2011, 7:13pm

Post #132 of 149 (592 views)
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It's a good bet that Glorfinel was a White Council member... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"It's never stated explicitly that Glorfindel was a member of the Council, but his rank would seem to imply that he warranted membership. At the very least, he had knowledge of many of the Council's secrets, and was ready to aid it in its policies." Encyclopedia of Arda


In other words, it isn't explicitly stated that Glorfinel was on the Council, but it is heavily implied that he was one of the "others of the chief Eldar" who were unnamed members.

Would Círdan have attended the White Council of 2941, or would he have effectively retired to the Grey Havens by then?


The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Mar 28 2011, 10:51pm

Post #133 of 149 (571 views)
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Cirdan has been hanging out at the Havens for 1000's of years... [In reply to] Can't Post

he was a very senior elf (original owner of the ring Gandalf ends up with if I recall correctly), so would be eligible. PJ could put him there if he wanted.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Mar 28 2011, 11:25pm

Post #134 of 149 (558 views)
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Círdan, Glorfindel, etc... [In reply to] Can't Post

Círdan did not attend the Council of Elrond in 3018; he was represented by an Elf named Galdor. I thought that perhaps Galdor had performed the same duty for Círdan to the White Council of 2941 and 2953.

Since Elrond does not seem to have attended the Council meeting of 2941, my guess is that Glorfindel and/or Erestor represented Rivendell. The exploration of Dol Guldur after it had been abandoned by Sauron could have prevented one or both of them from returning to Rivendell until after Gandalf and Bilbo did so the following year. I expect that Elrond did not dare to take his Elven Ring from Rivendell in the event that Sauron succeeded in launching an attack against it. The fact that, in Tolkien's continuity, Elrond was also sheltering Isildur's Heir (Aragorn as the young 'Estel') was, doubtless, another factor that kept him in Rivendell.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 28 2011, 11:28pm)


The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Mar 29 2011, 12:47am

Post #135 of 149 (567 views)
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Galdor was at Elrond's council purely by chance... [In reply to] Can't Post

or, by implication, "divine guidance" as he was there on an errand for Cirdan. While Cirdan could have been represented at White Council meetings by Galdor, I would think that such meetings were important enough that the principles would make an effort to be there. Cirdan was one of the founding members, after all.

Curious why you believe that Elrond skipped the 2941 meeting. Other than the 2851 White Council meeting in Rivendell, I don't think we were ever told where they were held. My guess is that meeting was held in Lorien as then it would make sense for Gandalf to accompany them to the edge of the Forest & then head south on his own. Lorien is close to Dol Guldur, so the travel time to go there, meet, attack Dol Guldur, and then get back to the Lonely Mountain probably works out well. Elrond would most likely have gone by the Dimrill Stair route (the same route Gandalf picked for the Fellowship to travel) and could have left later, so he need not have left with the Dwarves.

PJ is, of course, free to put whoever he wants there. It seems that Radagast will be there (or, why else is he in the movies?), but he was not named as being at the first White Council meeting (list being Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Gandalf, Saruman, and "other lords of the Eldar" per "The Silmarillion" pg 300).


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 29 2011, 1:03am

Post #136 of 149 (520 views)
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The return stop by Bilbo & Gandalf at Rivendel in "The Hobbit" [In reply to] Can't Post

makes it pretty clear that Elrond was not at the action at Dol Guldur.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Mar 29 2011, 1:16am

Post #137 of 149 (553 views)
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I see your point (hadn't checked there), though... [In reply to] Can't Post

if we take that section as "Canon", then the "White Council" was actually a "great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic". Guess that counts out Glorfindel (Ainur Olorin is going to be so disappointed)...and the casualty rate must have been pretty high as only one white wizard appears to have survived (Saruman).


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 29 2011, 1:37am

Post #138 of 149 (556 views)
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Pete will decide who attends [In reply to] Can't Post

or if we are going to see the meeting at all. I keep thinking that the meeting would seem like a replay of the Council of Elrond so they might chose to just show the action at Dol Guldur. The meeting might have happened earlier. I know a lot of people would be unhappy with this if this is how they chose to play it. But it would streamline the script and lose the part with a bunch of entities sitting around talking. A bit of exposition would take care of the meeting.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Mar 29 2011, 1:55am

Post #139 of 149 (530 views)
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As you say, Pete's choice since so little is written// [In reply to] Can't Post

.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 29 2011, 1:58am

Post #140 of 149 (520 views)
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I don't know. [In reply to] Can't Post

If they show the action at Dol Guldur without having any epository build up leading up to it. . . a bridge too far. I think, if they do Dol Guldur, they HAVE to do The Council. There are lots of things that will hearken to things in LOTR. They are related works after all. I think The White Council, with its loftier and more selective attendees, its majestic and venerable members etc. and the dialogue given to them will distinguish it significantly. They may also have the main council meeting at Lorien instead of Rivendell, to further make the distinction. I don't think viewers will have a problem with the notion that councils were held when major decisions loom.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 29 2011, 2:11am

Post #141 of 149 (537 views)
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It simply is not needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Anything that happened can be discussed by the gathering forces. This would not derail the action and fit much better in the time frame available in the Hobbit.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Mar 29 2011, 4:10pm

Post #142 of 149 (508 views)
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Elrond during 'The Hobbit' [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
While Cirdan could have been represented at White Council meetings by Galdor, I would think that such meetings were important enough that the principles would make an effort to be there. Cirdan was one of the founding members, after all.

Curious why you believe that Elrond skipped the 2941 meeting. Other than the 2851 White Council meeting in Rivendell, I don't think we were ever told where they were held. My guess is that meeting was held in Lorien as then it would make sense for Gandalf to accompany them to the edge of the Forest & then head south on his own. Lorien is close to Dol Guldur, so the travel time to go there, meet, attack Dol Guldur, and then get back to the Lonely Mountain probably works out well. Elrond would most likely have gone by the Dimrill Stair route (the same route Gandalf picked for the Fellowship to travel) and could have left later, so he need not have left with the Dwarves.

I went back and re-read the opening paragraphs of "The Council of Elrond" and I see what you mean about Galdor being present purely by chance. I had thought that I had remembered reading something about Círdan essentially stepping down from the White Council late in the Third Age due to his advanced age; however, my memory may be in error since I can not find any such reference. When Gandalf and Bilbo return to the Shire in the spring of 2942, they stop to rest at Rivendell; Gandalf brings news to Elrond of the attack on Dol Guldur. This makes it fairly clear that Elrond was not present for the assault and probably not at the meeting of the White Council either. When Gandalf speaks later of a gathering of the white wizards, we can interpret this in a couple of ways. Either Bilbo was simply too sleepy to accurately hear and recall what the Wizard had said; or, Gandalf was deliberately speaking in vague and general terms until he could speak with Elrond privately. It seems likely to me that Gandalf did not want to openly discuss Council business in Bilbo's presence. Tolkien wrote that the Council met late in the summer and Gandalf tells Thorin that he is already running late because of aiding the Dwarves. Gandalf then rides directly south from the eaves of Mirkwood. As you state, Lothlorien is one of the most likely places for the Council to have met, the other being Radagast's home of Rhosgobel. Others have spoken of Isengard as a possible meeting place; however, that seems too far south to me and I find it unlikely that Saruman would have wanted to host the event in his own stronghold. As it is, the meeting of the White Council of 2941 seems to be the only such meeting that was not held in Rivendell.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 29 2011, 9:04pm

Post #143 of 149 (496 views)
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I don't know, Kangi [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it would seem rather rushed and haphazard. If there is no build up, no precursor, no prior discussion, no debate, nothing. . . it will just seem to have come from outerspace to the audience, save those already familliar with the details. There is actually much more information about The Meeting of The White Council, and what Gandalf was doing there than there is about the events at Dol Guldur. For them to discuss things in Medeas Raes, as it were, whilst marching to their assault (or whatever means they will use to begin it) would be much more discombobulating than just leaving a space of ten minutes or so for the council scene.

And I certainly don't feel that The Council should be edited to avoid recollections of The Council of Elrond, any more than the company's misadventures with the goblins of The Misty mountains should be dropped because of The Fellowships problems with the goblins of Moria. The tales will have some parallels. That isn't neccessarily a bad thing, and can be a good thing. But the similarities will not be carbon copying, and the differences will distinguish exceptionally, I am sure.

Among other things, The White Council will probably give more relevant information than the filmed version of The Council of Elrond. The latter dealt so much with introductions, character backgrounds etc. This one will be more plot focused, I imagine. The known members will say their part, and any unknown members will function in the same way that all the unnamed secondary cast of LOTR did. No real backstory, just present as a given, and contributing their minor part to the greater dialogue.

Certainly it will be a clearly smaller and more elite council than Elrond's. Only Elves and Wizards in attendance, and less than half the number. I counted the membership of Elrond's council in the film. There are at least 19 to 20 people present, possibly more. The White Council, with all explicitly named (Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, Cirdan, Saruman), strongly implied with supp. evidence (Glorfindel), and even just highly probable (Radagast [already cast, as we know], Celeborn and Erestor) members, is not even half that number, totaling only nine. Ha. 9. Nine would be a very fitting number for the membership of The White Council, now that I think on it. Anyway, yielding back the floor.

In Reply To
Anything that happened can be discussed by the gathering forces. This would not derail the action and fit much better in the time frame available in the Hobbit.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Mar 30 2011, 9:17pm

Post #144 of 149 (488 views)
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The Council and its forces [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Certainly it will be a clearly smaller and more elite council than Elrond's. Only Elves and Wizards in attendance, and less than half the number. I counted the membership of Elrond's council in the film. There are at least 19 to 20 people present, possibly more. The White Council, with all explicitly named (Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, Cirdan, Saruman), strongly implied with supp. evidence (Glorfindel), and even just highly probable (Radagast [already cast, as we know], Celeborn and Erestor) members, is not even half that number, totaling only nine. Ha. 9. Nine would be a very fitting number for the membership of The White Council, now that I think on it. Anyway, yielding back the floor.

In all likelyhood, not all members of the White Council will be present. Elrond, at least, will probably remain in Rivendell, or will return there prior to the attack on Dol Guldur (based on what we are told in The Hobbit). I imagine that Rivendell will be represented, more likely by Glorfindel than by Erestor (if it is a choice between the two). That brings attendance down to six or seven members. In addition, I would not be surprised to see a representative from Thranduil, the Wood-elf King (perhaps Legolas).

Following the conclusion of the Council's debate, I do expect additional forces to be brought in for the assault. At the very least, I expect to see Elven soldiers from Lothlorien and a unit of Dúnedain Rangers. There could also be a group of Rivendell Elves and a unit of Wood-elves sent by Thranduil, who certainly has a stake in removing the Necromancer (who he may not yet be aware of as Sauron) from Mirkwood Forest.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 30 2011, 9:20pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 30 2011, 9:47pm

Post #145 of 149 (480 views)
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I agree about the assault. I was only pointing to Council Membership, [In reply to] Can't Post

as they may be shown in an actual council session, with Gandalf making his push for assault (very impressive Shakespearean persuasive argument, I do not doubt) etc., as opposed to the actual assault itself, at which Elrond may indeed not be present. And I will also not be surprised to find more Elves, either from Mirkwood or Lorien, aiding in the assault. No way of knowint though.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Mar 30 2011, 11:51pm

Post #146 of 149 (481 views)
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Could be there will be no soldiers... [In reply to] Can't Post

the Hobbit could be interpreted to mean that the "white wizards" drove the Necromancer out on their own ... not that I really expect Pete and crew to play it that way!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 31 2011, 12:33am

Post #147 of 149 (496 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

On both your comments.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Gwytha
Rohan


Mar 31 2011, 2:33am

Post #148 of 149 (450 views)
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If that's how it goes [In reply to] Can't Post

It will be interesting to see how they do a battle with conventional(by Middle Earth standards)military forces and a bunch of wizards versus Sauron and his allies(which I presume will be of goblin and orc kind). I had actually imagined it was going to be a purely magical battle, like Saruman versus Gandalf at Orthanc only super sized..

We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Mar 31 2011, 8:27pm

Post #149 of 149 (568 views)
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Possibly... [In reply to] Can't Post

I reallly do expect that the White Council would have had some support of arms for the assault on Dol Guldur; however, Peter Jackson is free to stage the event in whatever way he imagines it to have been, or however he thinks works best.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 31 2011, 8:28pm)

 
 

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