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thehobbitftw
Rivendell
Mar 22 2011, 8:20am
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Heart Wrenching story i think more than the Trilogy.What about you.???(spoilers)
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I read the Hobbit today and i felt reallly really bad for Thorin.The hobbit when you think about is more emotianal and heart wrenching than the lord of the rings in the way that this Dwarf/man who was deprived of everything his ancestors worked hard for lost it all and the moment he gains it back he loses his lifeI really think the dwarven past is dark and sad as they were driven out of their home and riches were taken from them.These dwarves mine and work hard only to have it taken.!.I really think it is really sad that he gains it back and other people try to take it form them.The climax is just too much for me.I fell really bad especially when he says something like.If more people valued good food and good natured health over wealth and gold they would be more happier in life.I also think tat this is Very evident in todays socety and is a great message to us all.;)
(This post was edited by thehobbitftw on Mar 22 2011, 8:26am)
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thehobbitftw
Rivendell
Mar 22 2011, 11:15am
Post #2 of 37
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I Can;t belive no omne has replid yet.////!
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C mon what do you think LORd oF THe rings of the hobbit which one more sad and heart wrenching.simple question dudes,.;
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thehobbitftw
Rivendell
Mar 22 2011, 11:30am
Post #3 of 37
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C mon what do you think LORd oF THe rings or the hobbit which one more sad and heart wrenching.simple question dudes,.;
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Mar 22 2011, 11:32am
Post #4 of 37
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You must have patience Padawan many have been resting.
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I think that Thorjn's fate will be shared by many today and it is a great tragedy to become obsessed with vengeance and overwhelmed with desire for wealth.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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thehobbitftw
Rivendell
Mar 22 2011, 11:38am
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I Just wanted to share those heart wrenching moments that surpass the trilogy
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I think that Thorjn's fate will be shared by many today and it is a great tragedy to become obsessed with vengeance and overwhelmed with desire for wealth.
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thehobbitftw
Rivendell
Mar 22 2011, 11:51am
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that compared to the fate of the world and that is a whole group of people coming together whereas.His ancestors who fought sp hard of a kingdom was so easily depriverd in a split second and this man was trying to gaint his back and he was solefully lost int he battle of five armies.this man even bought 12 other companiojns with him in order to get this task done i think compared to Frodo much more was at stake as he had a personal ravishing want for his kingdom restored and through his fortitude he gained what he once had back and then lost it so goddam easily due to thieves and robbers.this man/dwarf had to fight what was already his and i think that is so sad and it dpresses me to think he fell before Bilbo.!;)
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Lindele
Gondor
Mar 22 2011, 2:16pm
Post #7 of 37
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I can't say I'm with you at all on that
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LOTR is one of the most emotional heart wrenching stories I have ever read. The Hobbit, emotionally, does not even come close to even being able to be thought about comparing
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 22 2011, 2:48pm
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I think The Hobbit is a lot more heart wrenching than LOTR, in every way.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Labrynian Rebel
The Shire
Mar 22 2011, 2:55pm
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Throin's death always makes me feel wretched while reading it, who dies in Lord of the Rings? Boromir? Meh, whatever. Gandalf? He gets better. Although Lord of the Rings was more epic, the Hobbit still has the best death scene (Gandalf vs Balrog would have won, but as I said, he gets better)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Mar 22 2011, 3:05pm
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Theoden dies in Lord of the Rings; I always found that moving. As also the death of Halbarad - in fact, one of the most tragic things in LotR, to my mind, is the elegy that follows the battle of Pelennor fields because it gives a sense of the scale of the loss and the individual losses - something that would have toned in perfectly with Tolkien's experience of the First World War.
Then don't forget Frodo's realisation at the end of the story that he has lost the Shire and can no longer remain in Middle Earth, and Sam's loss of Frodo - how heartbreaking is that?
But honestly, why do we have to set the books up in competition? It's not either or, they both have heartbreaking passages because Tolkien understood what another First World War writer called 'the hearbreak at the heart of things.'
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 22 2011, 3:06pm
Post #11 of 37
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Yeah, The Hobbit has a more personal touch:
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Thorin's death is the most saddest section in any book I have ever read in my entire life.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Lindele
Gondor
Mar 22 2011, 3:23pm
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I am getting the impression that no one here has
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read LOTR...
-Sam and Frodo's heart wrenching, emotional journey, seemingly only leading to death? The complete
deterioration and loss of innocence that the Hobbits go through...
-Gandalf dies...far superior to Thorin dying emotionally. Thorin dying was an obvious must for the plot
-Theoden dies
-Boromir dies
-and OMFG the parting of the fellowship at the end when the Hobbits break up forever? Are you all just de-sensitized?!?!?!?!
I could go on and on, and i'm not saying that The Hobbit isn't emotional or heart wrenching, but my mind is blown by this thread. appalled even.
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thehobbitftw
Rivendell
Mar 22 2011, 3:29pm
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i just think that it is underestimated that the hobbit is a light hearted childrens story.the dwarves have a dark past and i just meant that i felt for Thorin becasue he worked so hard to get tot he top and then he fell.IT is in a word TRAgic.I SHould have never compared it with rings though and i can be very insensitive sometimes.,please forgive. THEY LOSt their Home and were trying to get it back.I JUst don;t see how a children can grasp that concept well enough.i would rate it m15 for sure.
(This post was edited by thehobbitftw on Mar 22 2011, 3:31pm)
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painjoiker
Grey Havens
Mar 22 2011, 3:36pm
Post #14 of 37
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Thorins death is probably the most unemotional deathscene ever...
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Except from Fili and Kili's death scene maybe
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flodwyns
Bree
Mar 22 2011, 3:39pm
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I’m what you might call an old fart (seen on another thread LOL!) and have been reading Tolkien for 50-odd years now. I agree that Thorin’s story is heart-rending which is why I am pleased that the role has been entrusted to a subtle, sensitive actor like Richard Armitage.
I’m not sure that one can really say which book is more heart-rending though. How can we measure this? What tugs at your heart-strings might not tug at mine and vice versa. I think though, that there are a few parallels with LOTR. For example, Aragorn, noble but dispossessed, fighting to regain his birthright lost by his father’s folly. His motivation however is perhaps more altruistic than that of Thorin.
Another parallel is Boromir, heir to a noble dynasty destroyed by fear, suspicion and the influence of evil forces. Boromir, the heir, loses his heritage (actually), his way (actually and metaphorically) subsequently redeems himself and dies in a noble cause……most of which could equally be said of Thorin!
And yes, there are I agree lessons for everyone within the pages of Tolkien's books, but I don't see all that many people listening unfortunate
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Lindele
Gondor
Mar 22 2011, 3:41pm
Post #16 of 37
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well there you have it
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thehobbitftw
Rivendell
Mar 22 2011, 3:44pm
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however the hobbit is not at all a childrens story.how many children stories have a brutal battle and three people/dwarves protagonists killed and cannabilism. Also those riddles no toddler or infant could figure out.lol I REad those comassionate lines and how angry and how he felt btrayed by bilbo and you could really get a sense that he really cares about correcting the past and what was stolen from him.he seemed so sure about what he wanted and it reminded me of the natives and the indegenous who were deprived of there land and culture due to the westerers who took over and raped and pillaged their people if you get my meaning.That in a word is the mose heart-rending about this story.
(This post was edited by thehobbitftw on Mar 22 2011, 3:50pm)
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 22 2011, 3:49pm
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I have read LOTR. 3 times. You asked me whether I have read LOTR, I might ask you the same question: have you read The Hobbit?
You call yourself "appalled" by our opinions of that some of us thinks other than you. That appalls me.
Your list of "proof" has changed nothing for me, and laughing "hahaha" isn't improving your chances either
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Lindele
Gondor
Mar 22 2011, 4:00pm
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with others having differing opinions. And I do think that everyone reacts differently to stories, and responds differently to emotions etc...nonetheless I am appalled.
And you are right, I shouldn't have laughed. But I just thought it was really funny, because I tend to agree a little. To me Thorin's death wasn't horribly emotional. I know it was for Bilbo, but I had a hard time relating with Bilbo in the moment...whereas in LOTR when Gandalf dies, or when Frodo leaves for Valinor, I found myself emotionally devistated along with the characters.
But hey, to each their own!
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 22 2011, 4:01pm
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The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Mar 22 2011, 4:09pm
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Angst is not the way to go with these films...
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I disagree that TH is "heart-wrenching"...and hope these films don't have an overabundance of "angst" as PJ is wont to put in his movies in an attempt to make them seem "heavy, sophisticated and important", (see his Kong and Lovely Bones). LotR, both the books and the films, had its share of heart-breaking moments, but also had heart, humanity, humor, beauty, awe, wonder, joy, and hope, things which PJ forgot about in his subsequent works.
In any case, TH was a fairy tale that Tolkien told to his children while putting them to sleep. LotR was largely inspired by classical myth and epics, as well as Tolkien's own experience serving in the British infantry in World War I. TH is a largely charming, "lighter" fairy tale and adventure story; LotR is an apocalyptic war story about our heroes being ready to sacrifice everything to stop the world from coming to an end; then, after defeating a seemingly unstoppable enemy, Frodo/Tolkien returns home and finds that while he was off fighting to protect his green English countryside, it was destroyed anyway!
BTW, Thorin in TH is closer to Boromir...he's a tragic figure, but reaps what he sows. Frodo is a purely tragic figure who fails just before he can accomplish the greatest task in the world, then ends up "dying" as he can't bear continuing to live in Middle-earth after all he's been through. Now, which is more heart-breaking...?
I have to reiterate, I sincerely hope PJ disagrees with you!! 
I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.
(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Mar 22 2011, 4:14pm)
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Lindele
Gondor
Mar 22 2011, 4:17pm
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for a first time reader/watcher, he died. obviously he came back, but it was still emotional when he died.
but i'm sure we can find reasons to argue all day,
are we not all Tolkien fans? we are on here because we appreciate his work and can relate to each other's enthusiasm.
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 22 2011, 4:21pm
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TH started off as a children's story but it certainly transformed to something much more special than "just a children's story", when he began to dig deeper and revisit the book.
And why wouldn't TH be heart-wrenching?
We have an important character who's sole thoughts through many decades has been to avenge his ancestors and reclaim what is rightfully his. When he finally reaches this after many dangers and toils, complications arises again, he is betrayed and he loses control. He then dies slowly in agony knowing that not only is he about to die, he has also lost everything. His little confort is to have a last few farewell conversation with Bilbo.
If that alone is not heart-wrenching, then I do not know what is.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
(This post was edited by macfalk on Mar 22 2011, 4:22pm)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Mar 22 2011, 5:05pm
Post #24 of 37
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I suppose the entire thread should carry a SPOILER tag.
Anyway yes it is sad that Thorin dies but as you indicate it was no less than he deserved after acting like a right b'tard. The upside of course (as thehobbitftw notes but seems to miss the signifigance of) is that he sees the folly of his greed before he perishes. I take comfort that he saw the error of his ways before breathing his last. Dying an honourable person is all the treasure one could ask for.
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Lindele
Gondor
Mar 22 2011, 5:27pm
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I agree, it is a very noble and justified death
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AlatarVinyamar
Lorien
Mar 22 2011, 5:37pm
Post #26 of 37
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Sorry?
Gandalf didn't die? Care to support that assertion?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 22 2011, 5:59pm
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Frankly I've always read The Hobbit as a tragedy. Indeed, tragedy is usually what occurs when a mortal enters into Faerie.
At the end I always feel very sad that the fat, happy, blissfully ignorant Bilbo of the first chapter is no more.
******************************************
From IMDB trivia:
"A scene was cut from the finished film that showed Eowyn (Miranda Otto) stripping away her regular clothes and then dressing herself in the armor of a Rohan warrior."
*Darkstone bangs head against wall*
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 22 2011, 6:19pm
Post #29 of 37
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I also forgot to add that apart from what you said, the old Bilbo is no more, ending the story with Balin is also a sad ending for those familiar with LOTR.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 22 2011, 6:20pm
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but he was revived. Since Gandalf is not a human being, it's harder to feel scared that he may die since he is not human and can be revived by the gods. Thorin is just a humble (or not so humble, some may say) dwarf, much easier to empathise with. That said, Gandalf is one of my fav characters, though.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
(This post was edited by macfalk on Mar 22 2011, 6:21pm)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 22 2011, 6:21pm
Post #31 of 37
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...strongly suggests that he is going to make him into a much more sympathetic character than he was in the book (where I found him rather arrogant and greedy). I think that's probably a good thing, although I do not think The Hobbit is primarily a tragedy. It should retain an overall light tone, with whatever tragedy is associated with Thorin used to add depth and perspective to the story.
Sign up NOW for chapter discussions of LotR The Two Towers, Book IV! Discussion starts April 2!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Mar 22 2011, 6:23pm)
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 22 2011, 6:24pm
Post #32 of 37
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I respect your opinion but party disagreed about the tone - since the tone of the book in the end is nowhere near light-hearted, I think it should stay as it is, more darker towards the end. But that's just me
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 22 2011, 6:47pm
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...after a few chapters I just got too mad at how the guy changed stuff for no reason at all. He moved dialogue around, added a bunch of goofy new characters like Tom Bomberdale and Glorfinkle, cut out a lot of great stuff like the Elves at Helm's Deep, utterly changed characters like Faramir, Theoden, and Treebeard, just about entirely eliminated Arwen, and I don't want to even talk about what he did with Aragorn! I mean, it was absolutely awful! I wanted to throw up! He just totally ruined the movies!! Whoever hired this Tolkien guy to do the novelizations for the films should be fired!!!
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From IMDB trivia:
"A scene was cut from the finished film that showed Eowyn (Miranda Otto) stripping away her regular clothes and then dressing herself in the armor of a Rohan warrior."
*Darkstone bangs head against wall*
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 22 2011, 7:27pm
Post #34 of 37
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... it's definitely darker toward the end, and I'm comfortable with Jackson's using Thorin as a more sympathetic character (like Boromir), assuming that's his intention. But I still think overall the book is not intended as a tragedy.
Sign up NOW for chapter discussions of LotR The Two Towers, Book IV! Discussion starts April 2!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 22 2011, 8:14pm
Post #35 of 37
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...have historically been quite violent. Red Riding Hood's grandma was eaten by a wolf, and Red was, too. Hansel and Gretel were sent into a dangerous wood by their parents, encountered a witch who turned children into cakes, and threw her in her own oven. The stories of Hans Christian Anderson and the Brothers Grimm are full of violence. It's really only in modern times that we've felt the need to sanitize tales for children.
Join us in the Reading Room for LotR The Two Towers, Book IV! Discussion starts March 27!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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StephenIbach
The Shire
Mar 22 2011, 9:02pm
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He wrote these books not as allegory, but what he liked to call applicability. He even noted this in his forward to LOTR. He therefore allowed anyone who read these books to take the story and apply it to their lives as they could at their time in life. Different people live different lives and different stories hit at different emotional points and struggles going on in each and every one of us. These emotions are constantly changing. That is why these books are at different times more applicable than others. Sometimes The Hobbit hits me one way one day and then could not the next. The same for LOTR. The same for life. These books are simply stunning, amazing, and unique for that single fact. They affect us differently every time we read them. We are constantly changing. The fact of the matter is that they are just "damn good stories" as the Tolkien scholar said in the EE appendices.
In Norman Oklahoma there lived a Hobbit...
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Mar 23 2011, 12:06pm
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The story is not a tragedy but there are some tragic elements to it
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As fantastically written as the whole arc of Thorin's character is, and as heartbreaking as his fall and fate comes across, he is ultimately a supporting character in the story. The significance ultimately does not lie with what happens to him but rather the effect of it on Bilbo. That's not to say that our sympathies should always lie with Bilbo- in fact it is the crux of his development as a character that he should for a time be reviled by the dwarves; the people he has tried so hard to gain the approval of (and thus the audience too) but the dwarves ultimately represent an outdated mode of heroism and so it is Bilbo's reinterpretation of that code (having been educated in it during his journeys with them) that marks his full development, not as some poor copy or groupie to the dwarven way of life, but as an individual, made truly wise through sound judgement of all the lessons he has learnt without being bound to self-destruction adhering to one single mode.
Anyway, back to the tragedy of Thorin. Yes, it is tragic, and i think it should be played as being tragic. I wouldn't go as far as Macfalk's "dies slowly in agony knowing that not only is he about to die, he has also lost everything. His little confort is to have a last few farewell conversation with Bilbo." For a start, Thorin hasn't lost everything, he's gained more than he ever thought possible- he became King Under the Mountain once more! The tragedy is how he didn't get to enjoy that success; that he allowed himself to be defined by the trappings of Kingship and not the actions of it and so surrendered wisdom for pride.
There has been some suggestion that to portray a sympathetic Thorin, Peter Jackson will have to alter the book, incorporate deeper motivations and more shades of grey than feature in the book, like he did with Boromir (though in many ways Thorin has more in common with Theoden, particularly the film's version), but that's simply rubbish- all the stuff needed for a sympathetic Thorin is there in the book, and indeed as hobbitftw shows, i think many people see the pathos of the character and empathise with him right from the first reading, you just can't identify what makes him so based on his actions alone- a synoptic analysis of the character renders him in a very dim light, but it is how Tolkien has him appear through dialogue and prose that shows him in his true light. The Thorin as written is as complex and as ambiguous a character as any in written fiction or cinema today and so hopefully that will translate onto screen rather than taking the grand misconception that Tolkien writes two-dimensional characters. If he can do that without making Thorin overpower Bilbo in the film then he will have obtained true cinematic genius.
Dr Death
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