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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Del Toro's Smaug
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 1 2011, 10:57pm

Post #201 of 246 (6853 views)
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Kangi pokes his head out of the snow drifts in which he has been hiding... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it safe to come out yet? Hay I got a great Idea. Lets all take three deep breaths and think about where we are. February 1. 2011. Video capture commences soon. I do not want to see anyone's work that has been put into this movie project wasted. It can be fun thinking about different possibilities and what things might be like. It is not fun to argue because all arguments are circles and go no where.

PEACE!

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

Smaug Small

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Feb 1 2011, 10:58pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 1 2011, 11:16pm

Post #202 of 246 (6859 views)
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Behold the Dragon Axe [In reply to] Can't Post

Vermathrax Axe

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

Smaug Small


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Feb 1 2011, 11:31pm

Post #203 of 246 (6826 views)
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Circle--Whuhh...? I'll have you know [In reply to] Can't Post

that I keep my argument ready to hand, and it's quite the peace-maker! 'Course, if folks don't want that ending, it's quite the piece-maker as well.
P.S. - You might need to get your eyes checked if you're seein' circles.
;)

**********************************


NARF
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon


pasi
The Shire

Feb 1 2011, 11:50pm

Post #204 of 246 (6821 views)
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Yes, itīs me from Lisbon - Portugal [In reply to] Can't Post

Since Iam a Tolkien Collector since the 70', member of the Tolkien Society and Beyond Bree I 'am very anxious about this Hobbit project . I think that PJ makes a great adaptation of the LOTR and when I knew that GDT is going to be the director I feel that something is going wrong from the begining. I have to say that I love the Panīs Labyrinth, but the Tolkien material is so strong and intense, that if he make a diferente adaptation problably the fans will not accepte. We have to think about the the position of the WBros. and MGM, they don't want to lose this franchise epic, and when they undestand that GDT want to make a lot of changes...Itīs my opinion.
Many thanks for your reply


pasi
The Shire

Feb 1 2011, 11:51pm

Post #205 of 246 (6783 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

Many thanks for remember me.
From Lisbon - Portugal


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 1 2011, 11:54pm

Post #206 of 246 (6875 views)
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I just don't want to see a Smaug with limbs too feeble to support himself [In reply to] Can't Post

Nor one who looks like a large T-rex could bisect him betwixt its jaws. I hope to see a Smaug who is clearly capable of crushing T-Rex within HIS massive Jaws, a Smaug who would massacre all The Fell Beasts of the nine together in a fight, even without resorting to his breath.

I do not doubt him having a great serpentine length, but he should still have heft. And Smaug's strength is Massive. The lines in the animated film come straight from the book. Adhere all, and attend attentively: "MY ARMOUR IS LIKE TENFOLD SHIELDS, MY TEETH ARE LIKE SWORDS, MY CLAWS SPEARS, THE SHOCK OF MY TAIL A THUNDERBOLT, MY WINGS A HURRICAINE AND MY BREATH DEATH."

That is a beast powerful in his every aspect, in his every joint.

To Bran:, Middle-Earth IS Earth (and not all legends are lies!), but I completely agree with you about the creatures and appendages. It always bothers me when people get into how quadruped Dragons with wings are anatomically incorrect. . . based on all the Dragons they have known??? You cannot assume what a Dragon could or could not have based on reptiles, birds or mammals alone. As far as I know, none of those above groups can breathe fire either, but we certainly expect old Smaug to manage that feat. If the great whales did not exist, one might say that no mammal can concievably reach over 80 feet in length and way upwards of fifty tons. No mammals or reptiles are bioluminescent, but such creatures do exist. Certainly there are plenty of non-vertabrae with six legs AND wings. I don't think the question should be, "how many sextupeds do we know of." It should be, instead, how do we concieve of one that works and functions anatomically, if we were to encounter one.

To Doormouse: Completely agreed on the "slavish" versus "faithful". One can avoid being slavish and still be faithful, but when adapting a work, especially one with such a devoted following, faithfullness is of GREAT importance.


Earl, you said: "I recall that during the filming of LOTR, the filmmakers thought that having Arwen at Helm's Deep was a good idea, but after reading fan comments on the internet, they (and Liv Tyler as well... she cried!) realized that it wasn't really true to the spirit of Tolkien's writings of Arwen, and they revisited it all. They accepted the criticism from fellow fans positively (if not publicly at the time), and rightly went back to Tolkien. In the end, they came up with much better, stronger, and poignant scenes than the ones they'd originally envisioned. I applaud and respect PJ and co. for that.

I hope threads like this (and the ones about Itaril) serve as reminders to the filmmakers that at the end of the day these are Tolkien's writings, and as much fantastical as they may be, there's a certain aesthetic grounded in reality that the tales demand. I even more sincerely hope that no one out there, especially GDT, feels like they're being singled out for being un-Tolkien, because "Tolkien" means many different things to many of us. And I hope we all remember that in the end we're all just fans here, albeit some with the talent and the resources to do more in that fandom than others, but that each of our visions and interpretations deserve respect, if not acceptance."


And to this I say, Amen Brother. I greatly appreciate what Peter did with LOTR, and would likely have appreciated much of what Guillermo would have done with The Hobbit. Yet I am not one of these "Peter Camp" types who are of the opinion that nothing he did with LOTR was wrong, and that everything he does with The Hobbit is certain to be just right just because he is the one doing it.

I wasn't cool with what happened to Glorfindel, and I WILL HAVE BOTH EYES ON HIM about the business of Gandalf's magic this time around. None of that damn "staff glows slightly brighter" mess where Tolkien specifically spells out erupting flame, or lightning blasts etc. *breathing and calming self*. But back to the center point, agreed. I don't want to see anyone who is doing this film stray too far from things that Tolkien makes really clear in his descriptions.

To Flagg: A dragon with his wings essentially springing out of his behind?/? Or attatched to his tail with the rest of him just sort of flopping out in front? That. . . that is a bridge too far for me. Not as bad as what Spendhle said about his fears of a venus flytrap mouth. . . though God knows I hope we don't see anything like that either!

As to the Helmet of Thorin. To be frank, I don't care if it has antlers or not. Certainly helmets with Antlers are not unheard of. And it isn't as if Tolkien gives a particularly detailed description of Thorin's helmet the way he does with some other things (some of which Peter tossed anyway, if you recall), so, I really don't see that as a problem. I would be much more bothered by an armidillo troll or Smaug as a snake with hatchet wings. If an antler helmed Thorin is the most bizzare thing left from Mr. Del Toro's designs, and Peter hues more closely to Tolkien in the areas where he strayed off on his own before, I will be a happy camper.

The Goal, to my mind, is to be faithful to TOLKIEN's descriptions. Not to Peter Jackson's preffered style, nor even to Alan Lee's or John Howes, despite the fact that their depictions are generally magnificent.




In Reply To
I don't see what's vulnerable about a gigantic serpent.

Snakes are powerful creatures in their own right. Increase them to the size of a dragon, and you're looking at quite a threat. And that's without adding limbs and wings into the equation.

And they're not just strong. They're quick and elusive. Smaug doesn't need strength alone. He needs speed.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Feb 1 2011, 11:59pm)


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Feb 2 2011, 12:07am

Post #207 of 246 (6867 views)
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Any of you remember the time Lotr was in pre-production? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was introduced to Tolkien only after seeing the movies, so I don't know anything about the Elder Days. Before FotR came out, how much was leaked of PJ & Weta's designs? What did people know about the Balrog or Elves before actually seeing them on the screen? It would be nice to know... Smile


(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Feb 2 2011, 12:07am)


duats
Grey Havens

Feb 2 2011, 12:10am

Post #208 of 246 (6832 views)
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I wouldn't expect any leaks [In reply to] Can't Post

The folks over at Weta are a tight-knit community. I can't think of any reason why someone would leak anything online.


carrioncrow
Lorien

Feb 2 2011, 12:27am

Post #209 of 246 (6820 views)
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someday [In reply to] Can't Post

The most interesting decision made in the course of this project was the introduction of this imaginative fellow as a tonic against stagnated imaginations who had been burned out with a decade of creating and recreating PJ:LOTR.
Trusting him as director was not without risk. But neither is losing him.
If Jackson doesn't bring a fresh energy as director (a role he has taken up grudgingly), Those who are now thinking 'more of the same' is a can't miss proposition may find themselves wishing for a trollmadillo or two.


carrioncrow
Lorien

Feb 2 2011, 12:34am

Post #210 of 246 (6790 views)
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production design [In reply to] Can't Post

I recall some preproduction mockup/images being released. I think it was before principal photography began and maybe even before casting was complete.
one was of the black riders overlooking the skyline of the shire, Aragorn and Arwen meeting at the bridge in Rivendell, an image of Moria that may or may not have had gollum in it somewhere...i think there were three more released but they slip my mind at the moment


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Feb 2 2011, 12:40am

Post #211 of 246 (6797 views)
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My bad [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't specially mean leak as something accidentaly slipping into publicity, just what people knew before hand. At least some photos, interviews etc were published before the movies were out. And I wasn't hoping for Hobbit leaks, I'd just like to know how Tolkien fans were reacting on what they knew or thought was going on - to compare it to the current situation. But perhaps it's enough to know how people reacted after seeing the movies...


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Feb 2 2011, 12:42am

Post #212 of 246 (6788 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you. If you're talking about the Aragorn & Arwen image I think, it was somewhat different to what we saw on the final film. At least Arwen's costume was.


Magpie
Immortal


Feb 2 2011, 12:52am

Post #213 of 246 (6809 views)
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I can tell you how to see what TORn was reporting [In reply to] Can't Post

Go to this page and browse the entries, week by week.

I've been digging through them but I was noting stories about casting. It was too hard (for the project I was doing) to note different categories of information but there were some pre FOTR reports in the 'design' category. Not many, though.


LOTR soundtrack website
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Magpie
Immortal


Feb 2 2011, 1:02am

Post #214 of 246 (6797 views)
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Well said [In reply to] Can't Post

If we have to worry about all our ideas being complete successes, we would contribute very few ideas out of fear of falling short of the mark. And some of the best ideas are ones I've not thought of. If I was only going to consider my ideas, why bother working with anyone else.

Design is organic but any creative process is organic... in my experience, anyhow.


LOTR soundtrack website
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 2 2011, 1:08am

Post #215 of 246 (6818 views)
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The 'wizard kebab' photo was leaked. [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a photo of a minature showing Orthanc, a spiky wheel and what looked like Gandalf (given the grey-looking robes) skewered on a spike. The image caused a huge uproar - and some questions about whether or not it was a hoax - before PJ's people (very quickly) asked TORN to remove it.

I *think* we also saw an early shot of Gollum before TTT came out, but it too didn't last long on display.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


duats
Grey Havens

Feb 2 2011, 1:12am

Post #216 of 246 (6803 views)
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I still think it would be cool [In reply to] Can't Post

If PJ and Weta released a photo of Freeman, McKellen, Armitage, and company all in costume.

Just something to tide us over during the first several months of shooting.


(This post was edited by duats on Feb 2 2011, 1:14am)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 2 2011, 1:34am

Post #217 of 246 (6791 views)
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The B&W cast photos they released [In reply to] Can't Post

of the Fellowship well before FOTR came out as the first time I realised just how well the designers and actors had nailed the characters - especially of Legolas, who looked like a fighter rather than a twee elf.

I'm looking forward to seeing something similar about the Hobbit cast.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Milknut
Rohan

Feb 3 2011, 4:54am

Post #218 of 246 (6723 views)
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Cute. :P [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course, I don't have much of a problem with the talk of his Smaug design. I have more of a problem with the other stuff like the curling troll and the antlered Thorin and the comments about it not being being a faithful adaptation.


Ceres_the_Dwarf_(planet)
The Shire

Feb 3 2011, 6:16am

Post #219 of 246 (6742 views)
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duats [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember Jackson & co. talking (in the commentaries...I think?) that they couldn't find a good approximation of Rohan terrain in New Zealand. They talked about how they knew the country they filmed for Rohan did not match the Professor's descriptions, but felt it was the best they could do in country.

About the thread in general...

Is a brief shot of ball o' plates orc anymore outrageous than the glimpse of freakin' orc PODS from the Jackson-verse?.

I mean, come on.

Also, this idea that with GDT as director it was going to be his own personal vision at the expense of being true to the Professor's story isn't very fair.
Going back a year or two, there was an extensive Empire Magazine interview with both Jackson and Del Toro in which they discussed the project at length. I'd provide a link to to an online version but I can't find one There used to be scans that one could read but they've been taken down, alas. However, certain quotes from the interview do survive because they were quoted in the thread about the article. That thread's over at the site that ends with a 'C'. (okay to link to it or not? Anybody, anybody?)

Chew on this:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PJ: We are doing stuff like that. It's not exactly as you describe, but we are trying to make the book a little less random. There is a little bit of deus ex machina in the kind of events that happen, because Professor Tolkien willed them to happen at that moment. There's not a lot of logic behind some of it. That's what you're dealing with a little bit with The Hobbit, the slightly younger...

GDT: ...fairy-tale world...

PJ: ...that it was aimed at. The cinema versions of these stories will be reasonably consistent. We try to smooth everything out and structure the films in such a way that nothing is random and nothing comes out of the blue in such a convenient way as it does two or three times during the novel.

GDT: Except when, if the idiosyncrasy in the book is a very iconic moment, then we'll do our best to preserve it. We can make that fairy-tale logic work as is.

Empire: Another problem is that Bilbo is largely unconscious during the battle of the five armies.

GDT: That's one of the idiosyncrasies that, from the get-go, I said, "That's one of the ones that we need to keep!" It's so unexpected. I think we're taking small tonal variations that are very beautiful. For example, unlike in the trilogy, where monsters were not often articulate, in The Hobbit, it's part of the book that trolls have very lengthy conversations. There are other idiosyncrasies that would not find themselves at home tonally in the trilogy. But we are moving the notches a little bit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Del Toro seems very enthusiastic there about the Bilbo being unconscious during the big battle. If that bit doesn't make into Jackson's movie, will a brief flash of an Orc Ball really seem so outrageous in hindsight? Put up with Orc Ball/but get Unconcious Bilbo. I'd take that over the reverse. Now, maybe Unconcious Bilbo is in Jackson's movie, and good ol' Pete always wanted it in, but it seems to me that Jackson & Co. might be more inclined to monkey with it. We are talking about the crew that gave us dumb changes in the name of increasing the 'dramatic tension' (or as they say in Kiwi, 'dramatic tinsion').

Also, I remember distinctly that Del Toro spoke in the interview about having the wargs be wolves in the movie because that's what Tolkien described (as opposed to the giant hyena critters from the Jackson-verse). I can't find that bit quoted in the thread, but the man said it!

So, anyway, to me, this sentiment that 'oh thank goodness he's gone, Jackson will do it right', is pretty bogus. It's not near so black and white. As per the quote, Del Toro seemed pretty jazzed about some of the book's "idiosyncrasies". I wonder how many will survive now that he's gone?


(This post was edited by Ceres_the_Dwarf_(planet) on Feb 3 2011, 6:20am)


moreorless
Gondor

Feb 3 2011, 6:43am

Post #220 of 246 (6731 views)
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Something in the middle for me... [In reply to] Can't Post

While I certainly want the Hobbit to follow the overall feel of LOTR I do think theres a need to a certain degree of change in the design work in order to match the story, more fanastical ala alot of what we saw in Moria rather than the more grounded design of the rest of the films.

It could well be that Del Toro working on the films then moving on was actually the perfect situation, bring some fresh ideas into the mix but then have Jackson use them to create a film that fits in with his LOTR.


Milknut
Rohan

Feb 3 2011, 6:48am

Post #221 of 246 (6729 views)
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You make some fair points [In reply to] Can't Post

I, for one, would like to see REAL wargs this time.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 3 2011, 7:11am

Post #222 of 246 (6714 views)
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*snert* [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(or as they say in Kiwi, 'dramatic tinsion').



Yes, yes we do. Laugh

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


macfalk
Valinor


Feb 3 2011, 8:11am

Post #223 of 246 (6694 views)
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Pasi [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome back! Hope you will stay around. Lissabon, Portugal you say? I've been there once! Laugh


From Stockholm - Sweden Smile



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Bran
Lorien


Feb 3 2011, 8:44am

Post #224 of 246 (6705 views)
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No trollmadillos for me, thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe I'm old fashioned, and unimaginative, but more of the same, more 'boring old Tolkien' is fine by me. I'm more than happy with what Tolkien gives us.

As to the point that 'Tolkien doesn't tell us Thorin didn't have a thorned helmet', well, yes, true, but that is a very, very dangerous argument. Tolkien doesn't tell us that Thorin didn't have wings, either, nor Bilbo two heads. He neglects to tell us about the fabulous Mrs Beorn, who could change into a hydra when orcs approached, or the suicide bomber orcs, what a great thing they are!

OK, I'm being ridiculous, but it just serves to demonstrate that just because JRRT didn't say something wasn't present, it doesn't give folk the right to go and make yup anything they feel audiences might like, just to sell more film tickets.

There is a line which should not be crossed. For some of us, that line is very, very close to what we are told by JRRT.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


nobofthepony
Lorien


Feb 3 2011, 8:59am

Post #225 of 246 (6716 views)
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thanks but.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll stick with my original, reasoned assertion that while GDT is a visionary, he had little understanding of the source material. I thought that before I read this article, just based on comments he would make here.

"Stagnant imaginations?" These people actually made movies about Middle Earth. They're seasoned and proven. GDT was yet to be proven. PJ's crew has nothing to prove so posts that hail GDT as some kind savior of an already ridiculously successful francise is laughable. Don't get me wrong...I like him, but I honestly don't see him as having tackled that project that sets himm on the level you all seem to think he is on. Maybe At The Mountains of Madness.

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