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Deadline.com: Orlando to reprise Legolas in 'Hobbit'
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Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Dec 10 2010, 6:22am

Post #176 of 269 (13693 views)
Shortcut
     I enjoy your opinions [In reply to]  

and understand your desire for a bridge film. But without Unfinished Tales there is not enough to build the bridge and though I am certain they tried it did not happen. So instead we get the Hobbit The Presqueel (or something like that.)

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


hutch
NahoR


Dec 10 2010, 6:28am

Post #177 of 269 (13675 views)
Shortcut
     maybe book TH will be theatrical cut [In reply to]  

and 'the prequel' will be the extended edition that can be ignored if one desired to...wow, that's two good ideas i had in one day.Wink


(This post was edited by hutch on Dec 10 2010, 6:29am)


HiddenSpring
Neirol

Dec 10 2010, 6:55am

Post #178 of 269 (13724 views)
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     What obligation? A cosmic one? [In reply to]  

Actually, Jackson has no such obligation. Neither does any filmmaker with imagination who adapts something to the screen. You seem to believe in some holy purity of the original work as if it were the only acceptable vision, or indeed the only real "vision", period. There is the original literary vision, then there is the movie version, which has an independent life of its own even as it owes much to the books. There are people everywhere who were moved by the LotR films and never read the original books. Are they diseased?

We have no idea if the inclusion of the White Council will detract from the "spirit" of The Hobbit. For all we know, it can be creatively and legitimately woven into the story so that informs the growing darkness of the tale in a way that would put the audience right along Bilbo in his discovery of it (even if Bilbo himself is not in that storyline... or must we see every single frame from Bilbo's eyes in order to get the point? Are we so limited?).

You claim to be supporting the right to criticise the films and my god, what a sad world it'd be indeed if we weren't allowed to do that. But not a single thing you've said is an actual film criticism. (I too am critical of certain aspects of them, but regarding their flaws as MOVIES, not as enslaved ghosts to Tolkien's literature). It's basically how the movies failed to do things as you wanted them (ie, as in the books), but if the movies are this great satanic undertaking, surely the books should be enough for you, and there you will find everything as originally written and its essence untouched. Because it's indeed the only place where you'll ever find it. Thank God, the movies are allowed and should be given life of their own, not be puppets to the book, as magnificent as it may be.

The film's gonna include the White Council storyline. Perhaps it's a total failure, and indeed I can picture many scenarios in which this would fail and disrupt the Bilbo storyline; but maybe, just maybe, it can make creative sense, not within Tolkien's The Hobbit, to be sure, which is a finished work with its own logic, but within Jackson's The Hobbit, a work in progress. It's just a matter of being open to the possibilities and judging each work for their own merits and failures.


tumhalad
Eerb


Dec 10 2010, 6:56am

Post #179 of 269 (13701 views)
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     hehe [In reply to]  

Ah well, that sounds fun, but unfortunately we shall have to contend with Legolas and Galadriel first.


tumhalad
Eerb


Dec 10 2010, 7:14am

Post #180 of 269 (13688 views)
Shortcut
     Response [In reply to]  


In Reply To
Actually, Jackson has no such obligation. Neither does any filmmaker with imagination who adapts something to the screen. You seem to believe in some holy purity of the original work as if it were the only acceptable vision, or indeed the only real "vision", period. There is the original literary vision, then there is the movie version, which has an independent life of its own even as it owes much to the books. There are people everywhere who were moved by the LotR films and never read the original books. Are they diseased?


Of course a film has a life of its own. Of course the filmmaker can utilise his own imagination. No, I do not believe in "holy purity" (where did you get that idea?) The point is that there are not different versions of one story, there is The Story (i.e the Hobbit novel) and then there is the adaptation. These are not two different "versions" that both have equally valid status. No, people who are moved by the film are not diseased.


We have no idea if the inclusion of the White Council will detract from the "spirit" of The Hobbit. For all we know, it can be creatively and legitimately woven into the story so that informs the growing darkness of the tale in a way that would put the audience right along Bilbo in his discovery of it (even if Bilbo himself is not in that storyline... or must we see every single frame from Bilbo's eyes in order to get the point? Are we so limited?)

All this is a mute point. Of course we don't know how it will play out; the point is it is totally unecessary, and if you believe Bilbo's story is limiting then clearly the Hobbit is not a story for you. This is exactly the point - the Hobbit is Bilbo's journey? Why is this such a contentious fact?


You claim to be supporting the right to criticise the films and my god, what a sad world it'd be indeed if we weren't allowed to do that. But not a single thing you've said is an actual film criticism. (I too am critical of certain aspects of them, but regarding their flaws as MOVIES, not as enslaved ghosts to Tolkien's literature). It's basically how the movies failed to do things as you wanted them (ie, as in the books), but if the movies are this great satanic undertaking, surely the books should be enough for you, and there you will find everything as originally written and its essence untouched. Because it's indeed the only place where you'll ever find it. Thank God, the movies are allowed and should be given life of their own, not be puppets to the book, as magnificent as it may be.


-Actual film criticism, not a single thing I've said - euh, what is your point here? I have criticised the use of extraneous plots in an already developed story that does not require embellishment, which is what appears to be taking place. I am criticising the filmmakers' decision to do this.

-Enslaved ghosts to Tolkien's literature? They are supposed to adaptations, not original artworks. If you think the filmmakers would be "inslaved" if they actually tried to produce a faithful adaptation, then perhaps they should be thinking up an original fantasy universe with the kinds of characters they like.

-Failure of movies to do what I want (i.e. in the books): Once again, they were billed as adaptations. Why should they not translate the events, characters and themes from the book into film as faithfully as possible?

-I should just retreat and reread the books. That's a lame argument. I would love to see well executed adaptations that are faithful to the texts.

-puppets to book: by necessity they should be puppets to the book: this does not discount their being awesome! Why do you equate faithfullness=slavery?? I mean, please.


The film's gonna include the White Council storyline. Perhaps it's a total failure, and indeed I can picture many scenarios in which this would fail and disrupt the Bilbo storyline; but maybe, just maybe, it can make creative sense, not within Tolkien's The Hobbit, to be sure, which is a finished work with its own logic, but within Jackson's The Hobbit, a work in progress. It's just a matter of being open to the possibilities and judging each work for their own merits and failures.


Of course, I shall keep ultimate judgement until i see the film; I never stipulated otherwise. However, I am free to criticise the decisions that have already been made. As you say, within the orbit of Tolkien's Hobbit, including the White Council story makes no sense. It should therefore make no sense in any adaptation of the Hobbit, which should be thought of as derivative and secondary to the text, regardless of how awesome it turns out.



JWPlatt
SnevaH Yerg

Dec 10 2010, 7:23am

Post #181 of 269 (13703 views)
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     A Challenge To All [In reply to]  


In Reply To
duats: Again, the White Council and Dol Guldur scenes serve no purpose to The Hobbit's plot, which is about Bilbo's journey. Being interested in the journeys of Gandalf, Galadriel, and Saruman doesn't make them any less pointless to this story.



Let's assume that's true if they were independent stories. Let's also stipulate Peter, Fran, Phillipa and Guillermo are competent and then make the common sense assumption that they have integrated the stories in a way that the White Council plot is critical to Bilbo's quest, journey and character development. Now, the scoop would be if anyone can predict with accuracy how they would do it. In detail. Maybe to the detail of a speculative screenplay. Isn't that a more challenging and exciting prospect than easy critcisms?


HiddenSpring
Neirol

Dec 10 2010, 7:42am

Post #182 of 269 (13690 views)
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     Nobody "should" think of them as anything... [In reply to]  

other than what they are to them. It's just a matter of perspective. I don't go into a movie expecting a recreation of a book, I go in expecting a good film that is (loosely or closely) based on a book.

And no, I don't think to be faithful to the essence is to be a slave. This is purely subjective, but I think the LotR films are both reasonably faithful to the source and work as films in their own right. Sure, there are parts in it that are relative failures, and could've used a deeper interpretation of the text, but I feel most of the themes and a lot of the original expressiveness is there in some way. I hope the same is true this time around.


tumhalad
Eerb


Dec 10 2010, 7:48am

Post #183 of 269 (13663 views)
Shortcut
     lol [In reply to]  


In Reply To

In Reply To
duats: Again, the White Council and Dol Guldur scenes serve no purpose to The Hobbit's plot, which is about Bilbo's journey. Being interested in the journeys of Gandalf, Galadriel, and Saruman doesn't make them any less pointless to this story.



Let's assume that's true if they were independent stories. Let's also stipulate Peter, Fran, Phillipa and Guillermo are competent and then make the common sense assumption that they have integrated the stories in a way that the White Council plot is critical to Bilbo's quest, journey and character development. Now, the scoop would be if anyone can predict with accuracy how they would do it. In detail. Maybe to the detail of a speculative screenplay. Isn't that a more challenging and exciting prospect than easy critcisms?


I guess it's more exciting, but I'm afraid that it would be indulging in fan-fiction, and not much else. Criticism is necessary - even though it can be negative and uninteresting. Indeed, we shall see where the White Council plot goes, and maybe it will be fantastic, but it wont be the Hobbit.


HiddenSpring
Neirol

Dec 10 2010, 7:54am

Post #184 of 269 (13655 views)
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     It says the Shire under 'Hidden Spring' [In reply to]  

 
I just picked up on that. I guess I am a hobbit, but nobody told me!


Doriath
Llednevir


Dec 10 2010, 8:41am

Post #185 of 269 (13189 views)
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     So let's say you're hashing out the script or directing [In reply to]  

where are the points in the original story you would yank the audience out of the book they know and love? Assuming the audience actually knows and loves the book. That could be an issue right there. Would you cut back and forth to show added material during, say, an intimate and tense scene such as "Riddles in the dark"? No? Ok, where then? C'mon.....anyone got the grapes? Heh heh ;)

Gives it to us in glorious 2D!


macfalk
Ronilav


Dec 10 2010, 10:15am

Post #186 of 269 (13611 views)
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     tumlahad [In reply to]  

Okay, the Tom Bombadil chapter had some importance in it concerning the nature of the Ring, sure. But most of that chapter consists of silly mambo-jambo tra-la-la singing from Tom about how thin and good-looking Goldberry is and even the sound of her dress rustling (which is mentioned more than once). Really, I'm glad they left it out. Goldberry was an annoying character for me.

One of PJ's best choices, and please enlighten me of why all that above should have been kept in the film ^^



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Ronilav


Dec 10 2010, 10:18am

Post #187 of 269 (13146 views)
Shortcut
     Kangi [In reply to]  


If the filming of Lord of the Rings was impossible how did Peter Jackson do it? (Some might argue that though he made some great films from the source material, The Lord of the Rings has yet to be made. 6 films should do it right)

yes we 'owe' him some respect to do his thing. do you know much about film making? it's a painstaking process with lots of hard work and tough decisions. and stress. lots of it. it's like leading an army and a good film is victory.
once a leader leads his army to victory under seemingly impossible odds-when no one else steps up to the plate we 'owe' it to that leader to chill out next time he plans a move because he's already proven himself to the most qualified one to do the task.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I see where you are heading, but to satisfy the most die-hard purists, not even 6 films would be enough. I'm thinking 10 or 15 films.




The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Ronilav


Dec 10 2010, 10:26am

Post #188 of 269 (13625 views)
Shortcut
     Fan-fiction - or adaption? [In reply to]  


In Reply To

In Reply To
duats: Again, the White Council and Dol Guldur scenes serve no purpose to The Hobbit's plot, which is about Bilbo's journey. Being interested in the journeys of Gandalf, Galadriel, and Saruman doesn't make them any less pointless to this story.


Let's assume that's true if they were independent stories. Let's also stipulate Peter, Fran, Phillipa and Guillermo are competent and then make the common sense assumption that they have integrated the stories in a way that the White Council plot is critical to Bilbo's quest, journey and character development. Now, the scoop would be if anyone can predict with accuracy how they would do it. In detail. Maybe to the detail of a speculative screenplay. Isn't that a more challenging and exciting prospect than easy critcisms?


I guess it's more exciting, but I'm afraid that it would be indulging in fan-fiction, and not much else. Criticism is necessary - even though it can be negative and uninteresting. Indeed, we shall see where the White Council plot goes, and maybe it will be fantastic, but it wont be the Hobbit.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Since the White Council plot actually happened, even if it's not put in much detail, it did happen.




The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Ronilav


Dec 10 2010, 10:27am

Post #189 of 269 (13575 views)
Shortcut
     Legolas was there... [In reply to]  

I see no reason why it should be compared to XenArwen at Helm's Deep (that was fan-fiction indeed!). Legolas is in-directly in The Hobbit book.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Aelric
Erihs Eht


Dec 10 2010, 2:41pm

Post #190 of 269 (13129 views)
Shortcut
     Ahhhh [In reply to]  

Just like the good ol' days this thread. "Debating" like it's 1999. Crazy

I've earned my stripes as well as my bread...


Bound
NahoR


Dec 10 2010, 2:50pm

Post #191 of 269 (13602 views)
Shortcut
     The same can be said... [In reply to]  

about the warg attacks in the two towers - never happened in the book. !

I don't consider changes of such size to be fan fiction. Movie adaptaion often change things or make up stuff that never happened in the book.

Books are called source material for a reason... they are the source of insperation.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Dec 10 2010, 4:00pm

Post #192 of 269 (13583 views)
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     Bad assumptions? [In reply to]  


In Reply To
This kind of phrasing makes it seem as if the Hobbit story is some kind of amourphous legend that can adapted by either Tolkien or Jackson, adding and leaving out elements according to their personal whims. Indeed, this is a fatal misunderstanding.



So someone suggesting that Tolkien's legendarium should "leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama" would be making a bad assumption? Too bad no one told Tolkien that, since that is exactly what he said he had hoped for, in his famous letter to Milton Waldman.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Dec 10 2010, 4:08pm

Post #193 of 269 (13542 views)
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     Here we part ways my friend [In reply to]  

The Old Forest, Tom Bombadil/Goldberry, & the Barrow Downs play an important role in establishing the greater Middle-earth of the Lord of the Rings (as opposed to the Hobbit) and the power of the One Ring. It marks the turning from Fairytale to the romantic high advantage of modern fantasy. If noot for time limitations it could have served the movie well. But so could have many other things that got left out.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Dec 10 2010, 4:12pm

Post #194 of 269 (13568 views)
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     Kill as in [In reply to]  

 get them to drop what they are manically preparing to do and revert to a plan that they have all ready rejected.
I am sorry but I was being sarcastic.
I think the Idea of a bridge film is dead as a Dodo.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Dec 10 2010, 4:25pm

Post #195 of 269 (13518 views)
Shortcut
     Not necessarily [In reply to]  

"Now, the scoop would be if anyone can predict with accuracy how they would do it. In detail. Maybe to the detail of a speculative screenplay."Isn't that a more challenging and exciting prospect than easy critcisms?"


Neither effort has any consequence other than entertaining us while waiting for the movies. I have all ready developed a pretty good outline for a script that covers The Hobbit Expanded to include the history of the Dwarf/Goblin war, the assault on Dol Gulder and the history of Erabor but no body is making my movie. So I will have to wait for theirs. It is fun to think and talk about while waiting.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


SirDennisC
Nevle-flah


Dec 10 2010, 5:10pm

Post #196 of 269 (13561 views)
Shortcut
     You raise a good point [In reply to]  

Even without the handy quote you provide, based on his background Tolkien might have judged the success of his stories and characters by how often and through how many different media they were told. The legends Tolkien studied before ever writing The Hobbit would have impressed upon him the relationship between a good story and its suppleness. For instance the Arthur Legends: unwritten ballads and songs became disconnected short stories became collected stories (with umpteen attempts to establish cohesive narrative structure) became paintings, idylls and, in the fullness of time, derivative novels and movies.


TheGoblinKing
NahoR

Dec 10 2010, 5:44pm

Post #197 of 269 (13529 views)
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     Tom and Hobbit Changes. [In reply to]  

As for Tom it is clear to me why he was not used. You had Treebeard and in many respects Treebeard and Tom spoke the same things and so Treebeard film wise was blended in with these two characters really.

I don't get the complaining I mean Legolas is the son of Thanduil and lives in Mirkwood and us not seeing him would be odd since seen him in the movies and he was around 3000 years old.

I think the elves bring class to the hobbit and there is room for this in 2 films. If its great film why be so judgemental. Do remember Pete was only person wanting to make a LOTR movie. Yes someone else could have made them but not with what PJ and Fran did with it.
Why can't people trust him now but did then.


JWPlatt
SnevaH Yerg

Dec 10 2010, 6:25pm

Post #198 of 269 (13550 views)
Shortcut
     Amorphous Legends [In reply to]  


In Reply To

In Reply To
tumhalad: This kind of phrasing makes it seem as if the Hobbit story is some kind of amourphous legend that can adapted by either Tolkien or Jackson, adding and leaving out elements according to their personal whims. Indeed, this is a fatal misunderstanding.



Voronwë_the_Faithful: So someone suggesting that Tolkien's legendarium should "leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama" would be making a bad assumption? Too bad no one told Tolkien that, since that is exactly what he said he had hoped for, in his famous letter to Milton Waldman.



Yes, that's exactly what I was bringing up about Camelot earlier. And I knew of that Tolkien quote but, lacking it, had to paraphrase it instead. Thanks for the quote.

There would seem to be a fundamentalist (literal) point of view at work here despite Tolkien's desire. And I don't believe what these movies are doing is creating something amorphous.

That said, there is an opportunity here that the successive derivations of Arthurian legend didn't have nearly so easy - the abily to keep precise records of the original source text and all derivations thereof. An engineer knows to always use a common reference point - an anchor - from which all further measurements are made. The same should be applied to storytelling when possible, as it is possible today: know the history of the story to which you are making embellishments and elaborations so that you don't end up with everything all crooked and ill-fitting.


SirDennisC
Nevle-flah


Dec 10 2010, 6:27pm

Post #199 of 269 (13519 views)
Shortcut
     Uh... [In reply to]  

Not sure you meant to reply to my post.

But yes, LOTR was a masterful adaptation of The Lord of the Rings, legendary in its own right. PJ done good. He will likely do good again (I mean come on, thirteen named dwarfs and the cast list is still growing? that is devotion). Personally, my concerns stem from what we have heard about planned aesthetics (presentation and technique) rather than changes to plot or the character roster.

Part of the problem really -- though whether it is a real problem only Mark Twain knows -- is the number of people willing and able to have and express an opinion on TH is far greater than before LOTR was made. As well, people's expectations are driven by the movies as well as the books whereas LOTR only had to compete with the books. Plus, owing in part to Jackson's films, awareness of The Hobbit and Middle-earth in general is far greater than before LOTR. So it follows that the number of (so-called) negative opinions expressed would be larger, but likely that number is not greater as a percentage of all opinions on the subject. Given the success PJ had with LOTR it may even be less.


Garfeimao
NahoR


Dec 10 2010, 6:27pm

Post #200 of 269 (13513 views)
Shortcut
     *standing ovation* but. . . [In reply to]  

First off, very well thought out and presented argument. I agree in principle to most of it, but in practice, it's just not realistic.

I think you overestimate a good portion of the movie going population. And that portion of the movie going population that can't fill in the gaps on their own are represented by Studio Executives who give notes on scripts and generally expect them to be followed up on. The current format of these two films will most likely have Gandalf departing the troupe after the stay with Beorn near the end of the first film, or at least halfway through the first film. He won't reappear until near the end of the second film. There is no way in heck that the Studio Executives are going to allow a little throway line of "I'm leaving you here to go run a little errand" at his departure, and another vague reference to some Necromancer problems at the end of the second film explain his absence. Literary folk may be willing and able to fill in the blanks with imaginings of all kinds of adventure, or boring errands, or whatever, but the vast majority of movie goers don't fall into that category. And to a Studio Executive, that's the difference between a niche genre film and a blockbuster. Make no mistake, this is not just about the difference between literary and filmic art, it's about balancing that art with commercial appeal. Its sad, but that's just the reality of this business.

Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,


Garfeimao
The orange stripey One



Cruise to Middle-earth

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