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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Is the Hobbit trying to be Avatar?
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Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:22pm

Post #151 of 202 (358 views)
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Good point [In reply to] Can't Post

But while that shows LOTR attracted enough people to have them come back for more, Flagg's claim that "[a]lmost all fans, critics and non-fans alike think that Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings is great" still do not follow from it. Many is not the same as almost all.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 5:22pm

Post #152 of 202 (355 views)
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Interesting you brought up music [In reply to] Can't Post

It's like music: the artist can be technically excellent and meet all the expectations of her genre, but some people just won't like it.

Mozart, Beethoven, etc., are widely known and respected as being brilliant and composing wonderful music. They're even held up as standards in school. Is this not objective excellence even if some don't like the music?


King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:25pm

Post #153 of 202 (355 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

It's objective popularity, success, and acclaim. However, being popular does not always go hand in hand with being good. Or do you think that every single book/movie/album that is a bestseller or is taught in schools is good?



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



macfalk
Valinor


Oct 18 2010, 5:26pm

Post #154 of 202 (346 views)
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Eldorion [In reply to] Can't Post

Well...the vast majority did consider them as "great". Look at any site or whatever (ROTK and FOTR are currently on top 15 films list in cinema history on IMBD with 400,000 votes), the 17 oscars and the golden globes.

I rest my case.





(This post was edited by macfalk on Oct 18 2010, 5:28pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 18 2010, 5:26pm

Post #155 of 202 (347 views)
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It does illustrate a trend but [In reply to] Can't Post

It would have to be adjusted to inflation, access to cinema, population increase etc. to be validated..

Kangi Ska Resident Bird Brain

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:30pm

Post #156 of 202 (343 views)
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Hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

What reason do you have for thinking IMDb users and Oscar voters are a representative sample of all people? IMDb users are disproportionately tech-savvy Internet users (and has been pointed out in a previous thread, trolls) and Oscar voters are movie industry professionals.

Also, I might as well repeat at this point that I never denied that LOTR was very popular and successful.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 5:31pm

Post #157 of 202 (350 views)
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LOL so it's objective popularity, success and acclaim [In reply to] Can't Post

and that has nothing to do with excellence. Interesting.

I think you're missing the point of the pattern. A one hit wonder of course is not evidence of excellence but repeat after repeat after repeat, well, that's another thing altogether now isn't it? As human beings we all have things in common even though we are individuals. There are universals to truth, hate, love, etc that that belong to this our human race. The same goes for excellence. Not everything is subjective.

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 5:33pm

Post #158 of 202 (341 views)
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No there's not enough time in between movies [In reply to] Can't Post

to take really any of that into account in my humble opinion.

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:34pm

Post #159 of 202 (346 views)
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How about addressing my point then? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think every single popular creative work is good? Because, if you don't, then you've just contradicted your implicit claim that popularity indicates objective quality.

I'd also be interested in seeing the evidence and/or logic behind your claim that excellence is objectively identifiable in the way that truth is (assuming truth itself is objectively identifiable).



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



macfalk
Valinor


Oct 18 2010, 5:34pm

Post #160 of 202 (339 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I know, LOTR equals quality to most people I've talked with and heard of. And the critics, too.





Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 5:35pm

Post #161 of 202 (338 views)
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I did address your point. [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you miss the one-hit wonder thingee I said?

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 18 2010, 5:36pm

Post #162 of 202 (339 views)
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No but they can be used to determin the facts about quality.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Bird Brain

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:36pm

Post #163 of 202 (333 views)
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The same is true for me [In reply to] Can't Post

But I know that I haven't discussed LOTR with most people I've met, much less most people I've ever seen, much less most people who watch movies. The people I discuss LOTR with are mostly on forums such as this, which implies that they're already fans. Wink

However, I'm not going to argue that LOTR was overwhelmingly well-received by professional critics. That much is easily observable.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:38pm

Post #164 of 202 (332 views)
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Perhaps you did not read the body of my post: [In reply to] Can't Post

The point I was referring to was this:


Quote
Do you think every single popular creative work is good? Because, if you don't, then you've just contradicted your implicit claim that popularity indicates objective quality.


Whether something is a one-hit wonder or a repeating wonder is irrelevant to that point. For example, the Twilight has had numerous successes.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Oct 18 2010, 5:38pm)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 5:38pm

Post #165 of 202 (327 views)
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It's quite simple really [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd also be interested in seeing the evidence and/or logic behind your claim that excellence is objectively identifiable in the way that truth is (assuming truth itself is objectively identifiable).

Take a man standing on a stage doing a complicated sophisticated tap-dance. To us humans, even if we're not necessarily into tap-dance, we'll acknowledge that that is excellence in dancing.

Then take another man standing on the stage shuffling his feet barely to the beat of the music. All of us humans, even if some of us like it, are going to have to admit - that ain't excellent dancing.



King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:39pm

Post #166 of 202 (341 views)
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How? What are the SPECIFIC objective laws of movie-making? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:43pm

Post #167 of 202 (324 views)
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You still assume that popularity is due to excellence [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think McDonald's is a restaurant with excellent cuisine? Do you think Twilight has excellent writing? Do you think Justin Bieber is an excellent musician? Substitute different examples to taste; I am sure you will find at least one successful and popular artist who you do not think is excellent.

If every single person who saw LOTR agreed that it was technically excellent I wouldn't be having this discussion, but that's hardly the case, even if you count only people who were generally favorable towards the films.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 5:44pm

Post #168 of 202 (322 views)
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Well no I did address the point [In reply to] Can't Post

A one hit wonder cannot be an example of a good author. That addresses your point. And, it doesn't contradict my point of using a pattern of excellence to ascertain objective excellence. So no contradictions there that I can see.

Though, a one-hit-wonder may touch on other things that we as a species recognize as something objectively universally good. Who knows we'd have to take that on a case by case basis.

Twilight is obviously a standard for excellence according to us humans - just not maybe on the level you and I are looking for the excellence. Teenage girls are the same everywhere or so it's said. Wink

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 5:47pm

Post #169 of 202 (316 views)
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No but look deeper [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think McDonald's is a restaurant with excellent cuisine? Do you think Twilight has excellent writing? Do you think Justin Bieber is an excellent musician? Substitute different examples to taste; I am sure you will find at least one successful and popular artist who you do not think is excellent.

No but McDonalds is objectively excellent at providing cheap tasty food for people on the go. I already addressed Twilight. Justin Bieber falls into pretty much the same category as Twilight - these all meet some universal objective human need for excellence in one form or another.

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:48pm

Post #170 of 202 (336 views)
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A few points [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
A one hit wonder cannot be an example of a good author.


An author who writes only one successful work can not be good? Could you explain the logic behind that?


In Reply To
Twilight is obviously a standard for excellence according to us humans - just not maybe on the level you and I are looking for the excellence.


If you and I have different standards for excellence than teenage girls, than clearly all humans do not have the same universal standards for excellence.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 18 2010, 5:49pm

Post #171 of 202 (315 views)
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No! It is all opinion and only mine matters. [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that is objective. EvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvil




Its a joke son...

Kangi Ska Resident Bird Brain

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:51pm

Post #172 of 202 (307 views)
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Now you're changing the meaning of the word excellence [In reply to] Can't Post

I began this discussion with Flagg over whether or not the LOTR films were good. I've assumed you were using excellent in the same sense as good was being used. It sounds like you're essentially saying that filling a need means that something is of good quality. That's a very different sense than I was using it, and if I am correct in ascertaining your definition, than I may not have a disagreement with you, even if I dislike your definition.

Smile



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Oct 18 2010, 5:52pm)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 5:54pm

Post #173 of 202 (301 views)
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I'm not speaking for the teenage girls [In reply to] Can't Post

If you and I have different standards for excellence than teenage girls, than clearly all humans do not have the same universal standards for excellence.

They speak for themselves in sheer numbers reading and enjoying the books. It has nothing to do with my taste, I'm talking about universal human reactions. If a giant meteor falls out of the sky we might all think different things but we're all going to be scared (unless of course we're insane or suicidal). Teenage girls are an aspect of all us that is the human experience.




King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 18 2010, 5:56pm

Post #174 of 202 (320 views)
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Take a film course at the University near you. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are also a whole sections in good libraries on film making and art criticism. Also the philosophical study of aesthetics. I do not have the time to speak to that here and now. Perhaps others can supply what you request.

Kangi Ska Resident Bird Brain

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 18 2010, 5:57pm)


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:56pm

Post #175 of 202 (310 views)
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Umm... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If a giant meteor falls out of the sky we might all think different things but we're all going to be scared (unless of course we're insane or suicidal).


I wouldn't argue with that, but the reaction to Twilight (or, for that matter, to LOTR) has been quite varied: from the fangirls, to the people who read it as a "guilty pleasure", to those who don't care, to those who actively dislike it. I think you picked a poor analogy with the meteor.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...


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