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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Is the Hobbit trying to be Avatar?
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Maggot_farms
Registered User

Oct 18 2010, 12:35am

Post #126 of 202 (394 views)
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my thoughts exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Plurmo
Rohan

Oct 18 2010, 1:03am

Post #127 of 202 (384 views)
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Cause for concern. [In reply to] Can't Post

"You cannot wield it. None of us can. The One Ring answers to Sauron alone. It has no other master."

Perhaps we shouldn't be reading this too literally. Sauron here works as an embodiment of Evil: "the ring answers to Evil alone, it has no other master," and that's all. It doesn't mean one cannot substitute Sauron as an embodiment of evil by means of the Ring.

If there is a cause for concern about this line is how much the filmmakers write what the characters say based on what emotions they want to highlight in a particular moment. In this case Aragorn reacts as if he was trying to protect the people around him. He doesn't even answer Boromir's challenge after that. It is the (as I told you in my other reply) "Aragorn on parole."


Plurmo
Rohan

Oct 18 2010, 1:41am

Post #128 of 202 (385 views)
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The HP series explores the idea of hidden worlds in plain sight. [In reply to] Can't Post

It has far more relation to the present world than people would expect. But people are more wise than they suspect themselves to be and are drawn towards anything that could bring to light what is already been seen by their intuition.


sphdle1
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 1:59am

Post #129 of 202 (386 views)
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I hope so [In reply to] Can't Post

"In a Two-Part 3D Production of Extraordinary Scope"... that sounds pretty awesome to me! The bigger the better, I say.

I trust Jackson et al with the writing, producing and directing of these 'movies' so no double the will both be simply awesome, and nothing to worry about.



Silmaril
Rohan


Oct 18 2010, 6:55am

Post #130 of 202 (371 views)
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the stories are very different and.. [In reply to] Can't Post

i think PJ & Co.'s approach to tolkien's middle earth did not change.


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 12:46pm

Post #131 of 202 (355 views)
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On that topic... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Do you really believe that the tiny minority of hardcore purists are right and everyone else on the face of the planet is wrong? Peter Jackson is fantastic.


And do YOU seriously believe that everyone on Earth is a devoted fan like most of the people on TheOneRing.net? I hate to break it to you, but hardcore fans are always a minority of the people who liked a film when it came out. Fast forward several years and it's an even smaller minority.

Also, I am just as skeptical as people claiming that a film director (or most any other artist) is objectively good as someone claiming that person is objectively bad. How exactly are you supposed to argue that when the qualitative assessment of art is inherently subjective?



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Oct 18 2010, 12:48pm)


Bound
Rohan


Oct 18 2010, 2:03pm

Post #132 of 202 (344 views)
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To quote a friend... [In reply to] Can't Post

Just because it's shot it 3D doesn't mean you HAVE to go see it in 3D . Most 3D films gets released in 2D also. You can't alienate people who don't like 3D or alienate the cinemas that don't have digital projetors...


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 18 2010, 2:17pm

Post #133 of 202 (363 views)
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The qualitative assessment of art is only partially subjective. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are many objective things that can be said about art including film.

Kangi Ska Resident Bird Brain

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


sphdle1
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 3:08pm

Post #134 of 202 (388 views)
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Am I the friend you are quoting? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have said that all along, on many previous posts... I wouldn't want 3D to be at the expense of the 2D experience, so I hope they have it in both, and film the movies with 2D in mind; however I do hope they definitely have it in 3D as well, as that is my preference.

When someone starts a thread that suggests that its wrong to have The Hobbit in 3D, that is when I completely disagree and do not see it as a problem.


(This post was edited by sphdle1 on Oct 18 2010, 3:17pm)


sphdle1
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 3:23pm

Post #135 of 202 (337 views)
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What' wrong with PM? [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the best movies of all time...I even like Jar Jar and Yippee!

That movie brought SFX to a whole new level... I hear a lot of people complaining about that movie, but I thought it was awesome.


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 3:59pm

Post #136 of 202 (340 views)
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Fair enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but at the end of the day, whether a film was overall good or enjoyable is a personal question. I may be able to note and appreciate the artistic qualities of any given movie, but that doesn't mean I liked watching it or would want to do so again. That doesn't invalidate anyone else's opinion on it, though, because there's no right or wrong answer.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Flagg
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 4:06pm

Post #137 of 202 (412 views)
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Err, no... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I do seriously believe that the vast majority of people on the planet enjoy good films.

When did I say that the majority of people who liked the LotR films are hardcore fans? I don't recall saying that. I do recall saying that the majority of fans were also people who enjoyed the films, however. Perhaps you're getting mixed up.

The three-billion dollar box office revenue was provided by casual filmgoers, not hardcore fans. Almost all fans, critics and non-fans alike think that Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings is great. I think this gives some indication of its objective quality.


duats
Grey Havens

Oct 18 2010, 4:21pm

Post #138 of 202 (444 views)
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It's difficult [In reply to] Can't Post

To use box office as a measuring stick for quality.

Case in point: The Transformers franchise.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 4:32pm

Post #139 of 202 (308 views)
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The Transformers franchise [In reply to] Can't Post

was a commercial success, a critical disaster and a failure in the eyes of most fans.

The Lord of the Rings was a commercial success, a critical success and a triumph in the eyes of most fans.

I was not using profit as the sole indicator of the films' quality, but it is still an important sign of entertainment value which should definitely be taken into account.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 18 2010, 4:48pm

Post #140 of 202 (323 views)
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In film [In reply to] Can't Post

There are structural facts involved in filming and editing. There are also general rules of story telling that are applicable and utilizable in the process of evaluation. These have long historic precedence and go beyond personal taste. People are capable of liking bad movies and hating good ones. The critical facts remain.

Kangi Ska Resident Bird Brain

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 18 2010, 4:49pm)


macfalk
Valinor


Oct 18 2010, 4:53pm

Post #141 of 202 (307 views)
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You can also add the seventeen Oscars and the golden globes // [In reply to] Can't Post

 





Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 18 2010, 4:54pm

Post #142 of 202 (367 views)
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It was a heck of a lot better than the one that followed it [In reply to] Can't Post

and maybe equal with the last one. (This is a coin toss for me.) but IV & V were the winners.

Kangi Ska Resident Bird Brain

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 4:57pm

Post #143 of 202 (309 views)
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From the post I responded to: [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Do you really believe that the tiny minority of hardcore purists are right and everyone else on the face of the planet is wrong? Peter Jackson is fantastic.


Maybe I misinterpreted you, but I think this statement implies that the vast majority of all humans think Peter Jackson is fantastic and that only "hardcore purists" disagree. If I misinterpreted you, then I apologize for that.

However, based on your latest post, you do seem to think that the vast majority of people think the that PJ's LOTR was very good. I'm not exactly sure how you can come to that conclusion just based on box office data. Titanic and Avatar were even greater box office successes than LOTR, and they have had nowhere near universal acclaim. The same can be said for most successful movies (whether you judge success based on revenue, critical response, or awards).



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 4:59pm

Post #144 of 202 (306 views)
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"Fact" [In reply to] Can't Post

There are general rules and tropes that most film-makers follow, but there are also plenty of movies that break those rules. Some of them are even praised as innovative and groundbreaking for doing so. I fail to see how this in any way disproves my claim that the question of whether or not a film is good is subjective.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Oct 18 2010, 4:59pm

Post #145 of 202 (328 views)
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Maybe this has to do with... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the fact that I was only 15 at the time, but I also love TPM. It will forever be my 'Star Wars Experience'. There was something really special about seeing a new Star Wars that belonged to my generation. I loved everything on the screen (including Jar Jar). Liam Neeson will forever be the ultimate Jedi as far as I'm concerned. I prefer it over the latter 2, though I find RotS to be the most emotional of the 3. But I still have the most fun watching TPM.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 5:10pm

Post #146 of 202 (369 views)
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I was trying to say [In reply to] Can't Post

that the 'tiny minority of hardcore purists' are the only ones who hate the films and that everyone else thinks they're great. I was exaggerating, or course (I'm aware that there are non-LotR purists who don't like the films, and I guess there might be some hardcore purists who like the films anyway), but I think my statement is essentially true. The loudest complaint I hear about the films is that they supposedly weren't close enough to the book.

As I've said earlier, I'm not trying to make out that box-office revenue and objective quality are directly proportional. I'm just trying to say that when you look at (a) the huge financial success, meaning that the public in general enjoys these films (b) the critical success, meaning that people who actually make a living by dissecting and discussing films enjoy them, and (c) the very high level of satisfaction amongst the fanbase, it seems to me that Peter Jackson didn't really do anything wrong. There are no chinks in his armour. It's difficult to disagree that he did a great job.

If it's held as a huge success in the eyes of fans, critics and casual filmgoers alike, doesn't that mean that it's objectively good? If that doesn't make it good, then what does?


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 18 2010, 5:16pm

Post #147 of 202 (294 views)
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They break the rules by creating new ones. [In reply to] Can't Post

With skill this can be done well. Without skill everything is an accident.

Kangi Ska Resident Bird Brain

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2010, 5:18pm

Post #148 of 202 (298 views)
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I know I way you can come to a conclusion based on the box office data [In reply to] Can't Post

However, based on your latest post, you do seem to think that the vast majority of people think the that PJ's LOTR was very good. I'm not exactly sure how you can come to that conclusion just based on box office data.

Unlike Titanic and Avatar people had a chance to demonstrate loss of interest after The Fellowship of the Ring in offerings of The Two Towers and The Return of the King and they kept coming back for more - in even greater numbers. That's how the box office data is useful in this case.


King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:18pm

Post #149 of 202 (299 views)
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Interesting... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The loudest complaint I hear about the films is that they supposedly weren't close enough to the book.


The people who care enough to go on the Internet and complain about the films may be largely purists, but the people who saw the films in theatres or on DVD and just went "meh" or "I've seen better" probably wouldn't care enough to join Tolkien fan forums and start debating or complaining about the films. The people you meet on a fan forum are not going to be a representative sample of all moviegoers.


In Reply To
it seems to me that Peter Jackson didn't really do anything wrong. There are no chinks in his armour. It's difficult to disagree that he did a great job.


I don't really think this thread is the place to get into a debate, but I think the pace of the films slows to a crawl in a few places in the EE. I dislike PJ's disregard for realism in having characters move as fast as they do or perform physically impossible acts like galloping down a cliff (both complaints neatly exemplified by Helm's Deep). I also think that some of the characterization, in particular Denethor the drooling madman, was rather weak. All in all I enjoyed the films, but I think they had some significant flaws.

In any event, I'm not denying that they were very successful and popular, but popularity does not automatically mean quality.


In Reply To
If it's held as a huge success in the eyes of fans, critics and casual filmgoers alike, doesn't that mean that it's objectively good? If that doesn't make it good, then what does?


There's an implicit assumption here that films can ever be objectively good. When individuals' criteria for assessing films differs as much as it does, I don't see how one can try to label a film objectively good. It's like music: the artist can be technically excellent and meet all the expectations of her genre, but some people just won't like it.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Eldy
Gondor


Oct 18 2010, 5:20pm

Post #150 of 202 (294 views)
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So? [In reply to] Can't Post

It still goes to show that these "rules" are not objective laws of moviemaking that can be used to determine quality as a fact.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...


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