Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Is the Hobbit trying to be Avatar?
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next page Last page  View All

Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 1:59am

Post #76 of 202 (447 views)
Shortcut
grumble, grumble [In reply to] Can't Post

okay, back to physics
get some sleep ... 3 am, yikes Crazy


The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out

You can only come to the morning through the shadows

(This post was edited by Oiotári on Oct 17 2010, 2:00am)


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Oct 17 2010, 2:04am

Post #77 of 202 (459 views)
Shortcut
Ahhh... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Thank goodness there is not too much of it.

but that is precisely why I prefer Tolkien's version of romance in literature. ;)


**********************************


NARF
NABOUF
Certified Curmudgeon


tumhalad
Bree


Oct 17 2010, 2:22am

Post #78 of 202 (455 views)
Shortcut
Oh! The moral outrage [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown

Ok, I don't want to get into a purist vs. gusher stoushe, but really, accusing me of hypocrisy is plain unfair. My point is to allow those of us who hold contrarian views to hold them without calling us "ignorant". That's all. And as for using the old canard - books and films are different "medium", well, you can do better than that. If you like the films so much, be prepared to defend them properly. Don't expect those of us who actually care whether or not Frodo's character was dealt with well enough, (or Faramir's, Gimli's, Aragorn's, Denethor's, Galadriel's etc) to pander to your moral outrage and shut up.

As for the films earning money - so what? This says nothing at all about the quality of the translation from film to book, merely that people like slash and hack sword epics. It manifestly does not intuit that the films were faithful adaptations, as I believe they were not.

As for the barely veiled accusation that I'm a troll, and therefore a kind of parasite, allow me to exonerate myself and reclaim my dignity. I am fully aware that there is such a thing as the Socratic method, and it should be obvious that I don't hold my views simply to outrage people. How insulting. If you think I'm the only "uber-purist" out there, check out the Reading boards, or better yet, this thread:

http://www.minastirith.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001478;p=1

Many of my own arguments and thoughts are articulated by others in this forum. It is extensive, and deals with every aspect of the film making process, the films themselves, the motivations etc of the directors, producers etc.


(This post was edited by tumhalad on Oct 17 2010, 2:31am)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 2:25am

Post #79 of 202 (448 views)
Shortcut
Now be careful [In reply to] Can't Post

This says nothing at all about the quality of the translation from film to book, merely that people like slash and hack sword epics.

That in your moral outrage at being called ignorant (understandable) you don't commit the same crime yourself.


King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


tumhalad
Bree


Oct 17 2010, 2:32am

Post #80 of 202 (442 views)
Shortcut
oh the humanity [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a right to be morally outraged, me and my kind were labelled "ignorant". Angelic


(This post was edited by tumhalad on Oct 17 2010, 2:34am)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 2:37am

Post #81 of 202 (443 views)
Shortcut
Hey you're entitled to your opinion of the movies [In reply to] Can't Post

but you can't speak for anyone but yourself - so you really can't say why anyone else likes the movies without making some uninformed assumptions. Take me for example. The movies were much more to me than hack and slash. See? Smile

*ah your edit adds some tone to your previous post I couldn't detect before so perhaps I needn't drive my point further. Wink

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.

(This post was edited by Tim on Oct 17 2010, 2:39am)


tumhalad
Bree


Oct 17 2010, 2:42am

Post #82 of 202 (431 views)
Shortcut
Respect [In reply to] Can't Post

MadNo I still don't "see".Mad There is plenty of evidence that many others hold similar or identical views with regards to the films as I do. Check out the forums above, for example. As such, I can reasonably claim to represent a particular point of view, while acknowledging that there are of course various emphases etc that others ascribe (think different pet hates). All I'm asking is that all "purists" who share this kind of opinion are respected.

Moreover, I am obviously not ascribing to you the opinion that the films are "hack and slash". But I'm under no obligation to qualify my opinion every time I make it. I don't hold to the mantra that all opinions are equal, I certainly respect your right to have an opinion, but I think there is more evidence to suggest the films were poorly written and poorly executed in terms of plot, tone, moral meaning than otherwise.

So, and yes this is an edit, so I'm not sure if it adds "tone" (I maintain the right to edit my posts):

-I respect your right to feel any way you like about the films, however
-I do not agree with you and I reserve the right to say so
-I am not seeking to lecture people, only to defend my intellectual integrity.
-The fact that there are not many others like me on this board does not negate my position or make it a void truth-claim. Purists are vocal elsewhere.
-I am asking only to be respected
-I am looking forward to the Hobbit, despite misgivings.


(This post was edited by tumhalad on Oct 17 2010, 2:49am)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 2:49am

Post #83 of 202 (441 views)
Shortcut
No I think you misunderstand me [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not saying it's impossible for others to have views close to yours - what I'm saying is you can't presume to know why the movie made a lot of movie because then you're saying you've magically jumped into millions of peoples heads and found out why they dug the movies. Thus I would never say something like "Everyone who hates the movies is a book purist." See what I mean now?

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 2:52am

Post #84 of 202 (421 views)
Shortcut
Well nobody's under any obligations at all [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'm under no obligation to qualify my opinion every time I make it.

But it weakens your point when you call out someone on something then do that very thing yourself. That's all I'm saying.


King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


tumhalad
Bree


Oct 17 2010, 3:00am

Post #85 of 202 (407 views)
Shortcut
Ok [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure, I think I understand you better. But I'm making the claim that people generally are inclined to like the LOTR due to the most part for its action, its scenery, its music and not the particulars of its adaptation. Of course I have no direct evidence of this, but I don't think its an unreasonable claim, and what's more you will have a hard job convincing me that people like the films because they were faithful to the book.

My own opinion is that those who say that do not know the books as well as they could. PiratePiratePirate *tries to deflect a rain of moral outrage, again*. The books are objective entities, and while it's certainly true that people can gain different "meanings" from the book, certain things, including the particulars of the ring quest itself, cannot be doubted.

For example, in the books it is explicitly clear that the Ring must be destroyed not only lest it fall into Sauron's hands but also lest it fall into the hands of the "good". In case there is some doubt about this, let me make it clear. This is the central moral message of the book. I wouldn't have minded so much about superficial things like Frodo's age, the Elves at Helm's Deap, the absurd Radioactive Scrubbing Bubble episode in RoTK (euh!) if Jackson et al. had got this right. Instead, they fudged it, fundementally altering the moral landscape of the story. Instead, "only Sauron" can use the ring according to Aragorn, as it "answers to [him] alone". This is a fundemental difference between the books and the movies, not a mere aesthetic one designed to couch the transition from book to script. It is gratuitous and unecessary, and worst of all cheapens the central message of the story. If you really think this is debatable, go watch the movies again, go read the books. Now, obviously the fact that this is changed does not mean much to most audiences, or they wouldn't have gone along to see the film in droves. But they did come away with a misguided appreciation for what is ostensibly meant to be Tolkien's story. Therein lies the tragedy.


tumhalad
Bree


Oct 17 2010, 3:10am

Post #86 of 202 (402 views)
Shortcut
I'm not asking this of anyone [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But I'm under no obligation to qualify my opinion every time I make it.

But it weakens your point when you call out someone on something then do that very thing yourself. That's all I'm saying.




No, I'm not saying people need to qualify their opinions every time they make them. Be prepared to defend them, sure. All I'm asking is that mine be respected as valid.


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 3:13am

Post #87 of 202 (456 views)
Shortcut
I'm sure there are other points you could bring up [In reply to] Can't Post

but I would address the one you made about the temptation of good. This is not glossed over in the movies - both Gandalf and Galadriel are dramatic examples of the Ring's power to corrupt even those who are good and would use it for good. As a matter of fact, it's emphasized even more in that it blatantly tempts Aragorn and (unlike the book) he says he won't take the Ring within 100 leagues of Minis Tirith. There are more examples I could name but...

But, um, we may be taking this thread too off topic... not sure.

Would I have liked the movies to stick closer to the book? Yes. On the whole though I thought the movies kept enough of the book that I enjoyed it anyway. But hey that's just me.

I hesitate to make claims that people generally liked the movies for one thing or another not just for the reasons I've previously stated - but it also astounds me constantly the variety of viewpoints exhibited just on this little message board. I mean reasons for liking or not liking things just pop out of people's mouths that I would have never even considered. Again just my perspective and perhaps food for thought.

Cheers!

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


tumhalad
Bree


Oct 17 2010, 3:20am

Post #88 of 202 (413 views)
Shortcut
The Ring [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but I would address the one you made about the temptation of good. This is not glossed over in the movies - both Gandalf and Galadriel are dramatic examples of the Ring's power to corrupt even those who are good and would use it for good. As a matter of fact, it's emphasized even more in that it blatantly tempts Aragorn and (unlike the book) he says he won't take the Ring within 100 leagues of Minis Tirith. There are more examples I could name but...


I didn't say it was glossed over, i said it was dealt with poorly. Yes, the ring tempts, but this is a contradiction in the movie. Aragorn is at once tempted while also filmed saying that it "answers to Sauron alone". As for Galadriel and Gandalf, in the movies the nature of the temptation seems to be that it can be used, but then the film contradicts itself time and time again. "Aragorn is right. We cannot use it" Gandalf says at the "council" of Elrond. The whole message is lost, diluted in a morass of bad script writing. What is the point of showing the temptations of the ring if it only answers to Sauron. Strangely enough, this is a paradox the book never had to deal with. I just find it absurd that the filmmakers were not more aware of their source material.

Anyhow yes it probably is off topic; thanks for the discussion.


Arwen Skywalker
Lorien


Oct 17 2010, 5:18am

Post #89 of 202 (400 views)
Shortcut
The big picture [In reply to] Can't Post

Temptation one of the Ring's methods of answering to its master. This is a means to ensure its own, and in turn, Sauron's survival. The Ring isn't looking out for Frodo, Boromir, Gollum or anyone else. It's only looking after Sauron. It doesn't answer to its victim any more than Palpatine answers to Anakin Skywalker by stroking his ego.

And besides, Aragorn says: "You cannot wield it. None of us can. The One Ring answers to Sauron alone. It has no other master." That has a different connotation than merely using it. He means that it cannot be a weapon against Sauron, as Boromir tried to argue just one line earlier. In other words, wielding is a specific way of using. It should also be noted that Aragorn says nothing about only Sauron being able to use the Ring. I do agree with you that Gandalf would have been more accurate by saying "we cannot use it against Sauron" but on the other hand, shouldn't it be obvious that he was only addressing one way the Ring could be used? The message of the story isn't lost just because this isn't spelled out in big capital letters.


macfalk
Valinor


Oct 17 2010, 7:50am

Post #90 of 202 (364 views)
Shortcut
No, tumlahad [In reply to] Can't Post

That's the book's message according to you - I haven't seen it set in stone anywhere. Have you?

I have read the books three times and I say that is not the message of the book. I say PJ is a very, very brave and talanted filmmaker. You see? This is my opnion, it's not worth more than your opinion in any way, but don't come here and claim that you have found the official message which is the "correct one" and that the discussion should be ended. "hack and slash"... gee.





Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 8:09am

Post #91 of 202 (355 views)
Shortcut
"You can only come to the morning through the shadows." [In reply to] Can't Post

You Got this right (3:07 US Central Daylight Time) Good Morning Middle-earth!

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 8:12am

Post #92 of 202 (355 views)
Shortcut
Obviously a good story teller and writes to her market.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 8:19am

Post #93 of 202 (385 views)
Shortcut
Terry Pratchett said outloud to me [In reply to] Can't Post

That J K Rowling was a talented hack that lifted the core of her stories from J R R Tolkien and himself and that she should acknowledge the fact. (This is not an exact quote but very close,) I was surprised. By the way I love all three writers.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 8:42am

Post #94 of 202 (357 views)
Shortcut
Hay, I was not trying to insult you. [In reply to] Can't Post

I had no intent of attacking you or your views and it was not I that slung around the term ignorant (As I know we all are to a point). And I was not saying that the Lord of the Rings books & the Lord of the Rings were different medium but that the stories will differ (to a large extent) because of the limits of the medium. They also differ as to the intent of the story teller.
I love The Hobbit & The Lord of the Rings books, else I would not have spent over thirty years reading and studying them. I enjoy The Lord of the Rings movies for what they are, this being a visually stunning retelling of the masters epic. There are valid things that can be said in criticism of both sets but this post is not the place for that. I do not think we need to get our feathers ruffled. Or go on the offense-is-a-great-defense war path. I advocated the Socratic method because it is based on the negotiation of mutually acceptable terms from which might spring understanding and respect.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 8:45am

Post #95 of 202 (360 views)
Shortcut
Aren't we all? [In reply to] Can't Post

And I would like to point out that I do not travel with a flock. Being white tends to make one stick out in a black mob.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Mithrandír
Lorien


Oct 17 2010, 9:00am

Post #96 of 202 (364 views)
Shortcut
I wouldn't be too worried [In reply to] Can't Post

A press release from a studio is band to use big words.I wouldn't pay much heed to it.

Social Science's biggest problem, is social science.



"The ring has awoken. It's heard its masters call"



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 9:03am

Post #97 of 202 (358 views)
Shortcut
I respest your rights as a human being. [In reply to] Can't Post

I respect your right to have opinions. Respecting your opinions requires discussion in terms that we agree upon. Anger and name calling are the end of discussion and the root of war. I am all for peace and understanding if at all possible.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 9:10am

Post #98 of 202 (362 views)
Shortcut
The ring is looking out only for its self. [In reply to] Can't Post

As it contains an essential part of Sauron's former power it needs him to be whole again just as Sauron needs the ring.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


tumhalad
Bree


Oct 17 2010, 10:28am

Post #99 of 202 (359 views)
Shortcut
Wielding the Ring [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Temptation one of the Ring's methods of answering to its master. This is a means to ensure its own, and in turn, Sauron's survival. The Ring isn't looking out for Frodo, Boromir, Gollum or anyone else. It's only looking after Sauron. It doesn't answer to its victim any more than Palpatine answers to Anakin Skywalker by stroking his ego.

And besides, Aragorn says: "You cannot wield it. None of us can. The One Ring answers to Sauron alone. It has no other master." That has a different connotation than merely using it. He means that it cannot be a weapon against Sauron, as Boromir tried to argue just one line earlier. In other words, wielding is a specific way of using. It should also be noted that Aragorn says nothing about only Sauron being able to use the Ring. I do agree with you that Gandalf would have been more accurate by saying "we cannot use it against Sauron" but on the other hand, shouldn't it be obvious that he was only addressing one way the Ring could be used? The message of the story isn't lost just because this isn't spelled out in big capital letters.

It is confused. He says "the ring answers to Sauron alone. It has no other master." This serves to confuse the central matter of the story. The point is, they can wield the ring, and they could do so very effectively if they wanted to.


tumhalad
Bree


Oct 17 2010, 10:30am

Post #100 of 202 (375 views)
Shortcut
For goodness sake, [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I respect your right to have opinions. Respecting your opinions requires discussion in terms that we agree upon. Anger and name calling are the end of discussion and the root of war. I am all for peace and understanding if at all possible.



I called no body names and I got angry because my opinions were labelled ignorant.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Oct 17 2010, 2:47pm)

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.