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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Is the Hobbit trying to be Avatar?
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 12:14am

Post #51 of 202 (421 views)
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He didn't say that was his opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

he said that "There are quite a few LOTR fans" who think that way

anyway, there is no right and wrong in regards to PJ's talent, it is a matter of opinion
You can't say that someone doesn't feel the way that they say they do, they have a right to have their own opinion



The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out

You can only come to the morning through the shadows


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 12:24am

Post #52 of 202 (429 views)
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On rereading: You ar right he did not say it was his opinion. [In reply to] Can't Post

and I agree with you that all are entitled to their opinion regarding personal tastes. But I personally believe that they should be willing to explain and defend their explanations. This is the Socratic method of teaching and learning. Everyone learns and the world becomes a better and more enlightened place.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 12:27am

Post #53 of 202 (478 views)
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I know that [In reply to] Can't Post

I only directed my post towards him because he seems to be the only 'representative' of the über-purists in this discussion. My post was really meant for the über-purist community in general.

I disagree with your belief that talent is a matter of opinion. Sure, how an individual feels may affect how much they themselves enjoy a person's work, but that has no influence on how talented the creator is. Some people are simply more talented than others.

For example, JRR Tolkien had more talent than Stephenie Meyer does. This is a fact and anyone who disagrees with it is wrong. Evil


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 12:29am

Post #54 of 202 (415 views)
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See I just learned something! [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously yes that's the point of a discussion board - to discuss. Why throw out an opinion if you're not going to explain it? Not to mention it's handy for spotting trolls - who seldom explain anything and just throw verbal bombs - NOT that I'm calling anyone here a troll.

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 12:35am

Post #55 of 202 (431 views)
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Please translate "meh". [In reply to] Can't Post

A comparison is possible and can be a good thing especially in coming to an understanding of what makes one book or movie superior to another. A simple statement of personal taste without comparison is not valid criticism. So I will end by asking you what you mean by creative and how it applies to the situation.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 17 2010, 12:35am)


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 12:39am

Post #56 of 202 (405 views)
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I think modern art is a fine example [In reply to] Can't Post

Two people may look at a painting which is, say simply royal blue with a couple white lines. One may say that it is brilliant, innovative and has great motion and energy. The other may say that his two year old son could have painted that. They are looking at the same painting, but have widely different views of the talent of the artist. Maybe the disagreement regarding PJ's talent is like this.

Perhaps instead there really is no disagreement at all. Perhaps the PJ fans are talking about his talent in creating an exciting, well-balanced movie, while the others are talking about his talent in adapting books precisely.

Or maybe it's a bit of each situation

and if we are going after the Socratic method: how who you define talent? AngelicEvil


The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out

You can only come to the morning through the shadows


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 12:40am

Post #57 of 202 (415 views)
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I was a troll once. [In reply to] Can't Post

In primary school. You know "Three Billy Goats Gruff"...the troll under the bridge and all that. It was fifty five years ago. I did not throw bombs.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 12:44am

Post #58 of 202 (410 views)
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"Tallent is the ability to make finely crafted things." Joesef Fox. [In reply to] Can't Post

The greatest teacher I ever experienced. This was one of the first questions in his discussion of aesthetics.

Now pick apart the answer and we will learn together.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 12:50am

Post #59 of 202 (399 views)
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Not even verbal bombs? [In reply to] Can't Post

"I'm not a troll but I play one on TV"

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 12:51am

Post #60 of 202 (397 views)
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here goes [In reply to] Can't Post

what would you say is the quality that a finely crafted thing has that makes in a finely crafted thing?

And what about those who have a talent for mathematics? Is an elegant solution a finely crafted thing? What about the ability to find the answer quickly?

What about a talent for reading quickly? What is the finely crafted thing in that case?


I would like to point out that you are very talented at distracting me from my physics homework Tongue


The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out

You can only come to the morning through the shadows


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 1:00am

Post #61 of 202 (393 views)
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one more comment [In reply to] Can't Post

as for the JRRT / Stephenie Meyer comparison
I would not disagree that as an overall writer JRRT is by far superior
However I would like to point out that depending on how you define the aim, the success varies
Stephenie Meyer is very talented at writing an addicting read, one which is hard to put down, even if you don't want to like the story (speaking from experience). Now if we are talking about deeper meaning, and don't think anyone would disagree when I say Meyer did not accomplish that.

Okay, I lied, I had two more comments.
I want to be careful to point out that I am not advocating an "everything is opinion, there is no truth" stance, nor do I have the truth, I just have my current opinion about what the truth might be


The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out

You can only come to the morning through the shadows


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 1:05am

Post #62 of 202 (400 views)
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Skill, ability and wisdom. [In reply to] Can't Post

A fine made thing can be material or intellectual. Craft is the process of making.

Ability (for the sake of discussion) can be limited to ones innate capacity to learn.

Skill is the outcome of learning through the utilization of ability.

Wisdom is the understanding of the limits of ones ability and skill.

If you accept these definitions then we have started to build the arena for our discussion.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 17 2010, 1:09am)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 1:11am

Post #63 of 202 (384 views)
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Resident Skeptic pfaw - more like Resident Socratic Zen Master // [In reply to] Can't Post

Sly

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 1:18am

Post #64 of 202 (470 views)
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but can't one improve their ability [In reply to] Can't Post

by learning how to learn better? We may start off with an innate capacity to learn, but doesn't our capacity to learn improve over time? Surely you are better at learning after graduating from high-school than you were in elementary school, and even better once you've graduated from college. If this is true, then surely our ability has improved, if ability is the capacity to learn. An author's ability to write is not the same when they are two and don't yet know how the world works, than when they have built a life for themselves, even if they already knew how to physically write letters.


The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out

You can only come to the morning through the shadows


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 1:21am

Post #65 of 202 (382 views)
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Just a poor reflection of my Master Mr. Fox. [In reply to] Can't Post

The last thing he told me was that his lawn was going to kill him.
They found him dead on his riding lawnmower 4 months later.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Ruijor
Rohan


Oct 17 2010, 1:22am

Post #66 of 202 (392 views)
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Harry Potter creative? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'd say its like comparing Tolkien to Twilight, to be honest. Say what you will about how good it was, but HP was at the very least creative.


Maybe it was but to my standards you can compare Tolkien to J.K.Rowling in terms of greatness, sorry. It´s just like comparing Avatar, a recycled script put together with state of the art technology for the sole purpose of visual delightment, to the entricate mithology created almost from scratch almost one hundred years ago.

For me Harry Potter emulates a little too much Tolkien´s Universe, probably one of the reasons of my dislike, added to the fact that it is more child- oriented; Dumbledore screams Gandalf everyday of the week and Potter is like an alternative Frodo Baggins.

I would like to state that this is only my opinion on this subject not universal law so with that said...


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 1:25am

Post #67 of 202 (393 views)
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An addicting read? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
as for the JRRT / Stephenie Meyer comparison
I would not disagree that as an overall writer JRRT is by far superior
However I would like to point out that depending on how you define the aim, the success varies
Stephenie Meyer is very talented at writing an addicting read, one which is hard to put down, even if you don't want to like the story (speaking from experience). Now if we are talking about deeper meaning, and don't think anyone would disagree when I say Meyer did not accomplish that.

Okay, I lied, I had two more comments.
I want to be careful to point out that I am not advocating an "everything is opinion, there is no truth" stance, nor do I have the truth, I just have my current opinion about what the truth might be


Warning: strong opinion ahead

Are you sure you are not mistaking Meyer for Rowling? XD Rowling is addicting- Meyer is a talentless hack who happens to have an agent who is a brilliant businessperson who knew that many female teenagers don't give a darn about decent characterization and only need their hormone fix.

This comes from the personal experience as well.

/end strong opinion

As for "there is no truth, only opinion" in art, the majority of it *is* opinion, and very, very few artists can be considered "talented" without debate. Usually these guys have been around for 100s of years. Even artists who are a couple hundred years in the making don't get off the opinion hook (I'm looking at you, Joseph Conrad...)

And, of course, people who are talented can make some horrible pieces of art, or have their shortcomings elsewhere. I am still of the opinion that, while Tolkien was incredibly talented, his shortcoming was writing romance. Thank goodness there is not too much of it.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Oct 17 2010, 1:25am

Post #68 of 202 (407 views)
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This kinda reminds me of [In reply to] Can't Post

when LotR was coming out and it was being compared to Harry Potter... that they were some sort of competition. For me, it was apples and oranges. This is, too. Middle-earth and LotR have been so firmly planted for me that even if these 2 Hobbit films are done in 3D (which I really don't want them to be), there's no danger of me seeing them as following Avatar in production styles. If anything, Avatar gleaned a few tricks from LotR ;)

sample sample

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes



Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 1:34am

Post #69 of 202 (372 views)
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a couple years ago [In reply to] Can't Post

my friend forced me to read the Twilight series.
I went into it saying "I'm not going to like it," but was sorely disappointed with myself when I couldn't put it down. However, when I got to the end of each book I closed the cover and said to myself "what was the point of that? and what in the world made it so addicting." Of course then I'd give my friend back her book, she'd be ecstatic that I actually took the time to read it, hand me the next one, and it would happen all over again.

and yes, everyone has their blunders. Actually I think that if we don't see a talented person as not having any blunders we are probably not paying enough attention and/or are wearing rose colored glasses


The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out

You can only come to the morning through the shadows


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 1:35am

Post #70 of 202 (376 views)
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So do you want to dispute the definition of ability that I offered? [In reply to] Can't Post

Capacity and ability are not the same thing. Skill comes from learning to better utilize ones ability. Current studies indicate that the individual's process of learning (the apprehension and understanding of experience) actually slows as one matures. Babies learn an entire language, how to control a human body, what behavior is acceptable and how to get what they want and need in an astonishingly short time. I am fully ripened. I am lucky to learn a few new things each day (Old Dogs you know.)
Skill and wisdom comes from learning and applying the knowledge gained.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Ruijor
Rohan


Oct 17 2010, 1:36am

Post #71 of 202 (382 views)
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Well said. [In reply to] Can't Post

My thoughts exactly...


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 1:45am

Post #72 of 202 (372 views)
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Tolkien did not write for a market [In reply to] Can't Post

In today's publishing world only a miracle would get them into print annd even back then it was nearly a miracle as it was. Publishers today demand that writers write to a market. In the old days they called this hack writing. Today there are genre with very specific rules for inclusion. This would have been a big problem for the Professor.

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 1:50am

Post #73 of 202 (362 views)
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I was trying to keep ability and capacity separate [In reply to] Can't Post

with their own definitions. That being said, as one improves, so does the other, at least if we work off your definition of ability as the capacity to learn.

While your overall capacity to learn surely is tremendous as an infant, your specific capacity to learn how to compose good literature is not. For this you must first develop an appropriate knowledge base to work off of. You are not going to learn to write good stories if you do not first know how to write, have a developed vocabulary and sense of grammar, knowledge of what is and is not possible, etc.

To quote Tolkien:

Quote
For creative Fantasy is founded upon the hard recognition that things are so in the world as it appears under the sun; on recognition of fact, but not slavery to it
-- On Fairy Stories


We must first have a basis of knowledge and experience to create something for which people would say we have talent, at least when it comes to writing


The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out

You can only come to the morning through the shadows


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2010, 1:56am

Post #74 of 202 (353 views)
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definitely not denying that [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien did not exactly have a talent for giving the publisher what they asked for. "Sequel to The Hobbit," or sweeping epic thick with complicated themes, same thing, right? Tongue

Just saying that Stephanie Meyer must have a talent for something if she can get so many people to read her books, even if for many it is only out of curiosity for what so many people are talking bout


The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out

You can only come to the morning through the shadows


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 17 2010, 1:56am

Post #75 of 202 (365 views)
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I have to retire for the night. [In reply to] Can't Post

Three AM comes far too soon. I will pick this up tomorrow. Now back to those physics.Wink

Kangi Ska Resident Cynic

The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

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