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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Media Release: Peter Jackson Speaks Actor Boycott of “The Hobbit” (From the Home Page)
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Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 30 2010, 8:13pm

Post #26 of 79 (631 views)
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It's understandable. [In reply to] Can't Post

A union would want communications to be between its executive and a business's CEO, rather than have the CEO talk directly with union members and possibily pressure those workers even indirectly into agreeing to a certain line.

Which is not to say PJ would do that. But the principle is understandable.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


macfalk
Valinor


Sep 30 2010, 8:20pm

Post #27 of 79 (589 views)
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Maybe, but what they are doing is out of hand. To answer "no" right when the meeting just has started tells something about their style.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 8:47pm

Post #28 of 79 (588 views)
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Move a foregone conclusion? [In reply to] Can't Post

The way this paragraph is worded, to me anyway, sounds like the decision to move has already been taken:


Quote

Sir Peter dismisses the suggestion that The Hobbit is moving to Eastern Europe because it is cheaper to make films over there. “People are claiming this is the reason the film is moving off shore. It’s completely absurd! Eastern Europe is only being considered because a minority group of the NZ acting community have invoked union action that has blacklisted our film, making it impossible to shoot in New Zealand. It is not an issue in any other country.” -emphasis added



What is absurd is the idea that a production of this size can just pack up and move at a moment's notice without taking a major hit on the expense side. This sort of decision would take months to plan to be cost effective. How long has moving been a consideration? If it has been under consideration for sometime, what are the reasons? What about the work that has already been done in NZ, the infrastructure, the knowledge and project specific skills -- some of which have already been paid for -- that will be left behind? Are they simply counted as a loss against future earnings with no value beyond numbers in a ledger?

The other thing, when Sir Peter says, "making it impossible to shoot in New Zealand," I wonder how close they were to dusting off the cameras and shooting this thing?

For those who pay attention to these sorts of matters, as Squire says above, what we have here is mostly a familiar refrain from the management side of a dispute. Yet the above paragraph does not sound as "if/then" as do these kind of statements usually.



Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 30 2010, 9:02pm

Post #29 of 79 (580 views)
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I don't think that's fair, or accurate [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
:...it doesn't guarantee residuals for ALL, which is what all of this is about.


I don't think that's entirely accurate. I think it's hard to argue that these are general demands for wages and residuals for ALL NZ actors now and in the future, given the timing and the fact that all of the statements and press releases of the FIA, MEAA and NZ Actor's Equity specifically reference Peter Jackson and The Hobbit production. From what we've learned of NZ laws, even if they win this battle, they'll have to fight it all over again with every production company that exists in the country unless the laws change. This seems very much like one specific battle, targeted at one production, where the outcome very much doesn't guarantee the same outcome for all on future productions.



Quote
if they were kicking up a stink about this on any other film than THE HOBBIT, I'm pretty sure the majority of the anti-union chat on this board wouldn't exist.


And that, I think, isn't a very fair statement. This *is* a board dedicated to discussion of The Hobbit, after all. The fans here have gone through many, many frustrations, as you know. So, to fault them for venting their frustrations at yet another roadblock isn't very fair. There have been just as many pro-union comment as not, and many venting their frustrations have been careful to couch it in terms of the specific circumstances, and not to disparage unions, or even the actor's unions, in general. At the same time those who truly are anti-union are welcome to express their feelings here too.

I've been very, very impressed with the tone of the discussions here with everyone willing to both listen and participate united as Hobbit fans, tolerant, respectful and open to other opinions. Let's not start painting with too broad a brush, or calling out people with whom we disagree simply because we don't like what they're saying.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



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SirDennisC
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 9:04pm

Post #30 of 79 (612 views)
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Appearances aside [In reply to] Can't Post

The principle is sound and has been a feature of labour relations for decades, all over the world. Having control over a person's livelihood is sometimes a terrible and awesome power to weild. It takes alot of sand to take issue with the person who signs your paycheck, even as a member of a group.


lurtz2010
Rohan

Sep 30 2010, 9:41pm

Post #31 of 79 (557 views)
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This sux [In reply to] Can't Post

Guess these MEAA people just weren't fans of the LOTR films...


Owain
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2010, 9:48pm

Post #32 of 79 (557 views)
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Where do you see Karl Urban stating his opinion in this article? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see anything in the article where Karl Urban has said anything in opposition to Peter Jackson's stance.

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."

(This post was edited by Owain on Sep 30 2010, 9:52pm)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2010, 9:52pm

Post #33 of 79 (561 views)
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It's not in this article [In reply to] Can't Post

It's been reported in other areas and linked to in this forum so it's sorta kinda "common knowledge" and PJ certainly has heard about it. Here's a link. Smile

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Owain
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2010, 9:58pm

Post #34 of 79 (530 views)
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Ok... that makes more sense now. I hadn't seen this article and was reading the one posted... [In reply to] Can't Post

... in this thread. It's interesting to note that Cate Blanchett, Sir Ian McKellan, and Hugo Weaving are also listed as supporting the stance of the Union.

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 30 2010, 9:59pm

Post #35 of 79 (527 views)
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Update from the Home Page: Stuff.co.nz: Jackson barred from union Hobbit meeting [In reply to] Can't Post

Sir Peter Jackson offered to go to an actors' union meeting last night called over the Hobbit dispute, but was turned down.

Spada had attempted to meet with the MEAA to discuss actors' terms and conditions for over 18 months, without success, he said.

The Hobbit's producers - including Sir Peter - contacted the MEAA and NZ Actors Equity yesterday morning with an offer to attend the Wellington meeting in the hope of finding a solution to the dispute.

After sending several requests asking for a response, the producers were finally told "no" shortly before the meeting started.

"It is pity we were not given the chance to have a discussion with the actors, who are the party most affected by the MEAA's actions," Sir Peter said. [Read More]



Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


squire
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 10:02pm

Post #36 of 79 (506 views)
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Thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

I've noticed that those here who are frustrated with the unions' blocking of The Hobbit's progress at the ten-yard line, are very generously acknowledging where their frustration is coming from, and are almost always stating that they are not necessarily against unions in general.

I don't consider this discussion to be anti-union. It's not particularly pro-management, either. It is, as might be expected, pretty pro-Jackson and pro-Hobbit!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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dormouse
Half-elven

Sep 30 2010, 10:04pm

Post #37 of 79 (544 views)
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According to the union they are.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but not one of them has made any public statement. I would assume the union statement about them has more to do with the fact that as members of acting unions in their own countries they would be obliged to support the international boycott or face some sort of sanctions. We don't know what they actually think about it.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 10:06pm

Post #38 of 79 (524 views)
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Nor will we hear from them any time soon [In reply to] Can't Post

if they are smart. (Which I am sure they are.)

Kangi Ska

Make the Hobbit Happen Now!

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(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Sep 30 2010, 10:07pm)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2010, 10:09pm

Post #39 of 79 (527 views)
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Indeed this was what I was flabbergasted about earlier in this thread [In reply to] Can't Post

This pretty much blows a giant hole in the whole "the production won't talk with us" narrative the union had going.

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 10:11pm

Post #40 of 79 (503 views)
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You have to be careful what you ask for [In reply to] Can't Post

or you might get it and then some. Again this appears to be poor organizing on the part of NZAE (New Zealand Actors Equity.

Kangi Ska

Make the Hobbit Happen Now!

Photobucket

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Sep 30 2010, 10:12pm)


squire
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 10:11pm

Post #41 of 79 (498 views)
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I think he's just speaking in haste [In reply to] Can't Post

In the next sentence he says E. Europe is being "considered", which is certainly true, but hardly definite about a change of location. I take his statement to mean that the film is not yet actually "moving offshore", as if the decision has been irrevocably made. Understandably, given the point he's trying to make, he was a little too definite there. I imagine he is not very happy right now, what with having to look at preliminary location reports from his studio for, what, six other places in the world other than NZ.

I do think it's ironic that Jackson calls a shoot in E. Europe "moving offshore", when the American unions who are watching two major American studios fund another mega-production in New Zealand have long thought of Jackson's films as already being "offshore". It all depends on what your perspective is.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Pipe Dream
Gondor


Sep 30 2010, 10:13pm

Post #42 of 79 (498 views)
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I'd keep quite too...If I were in the SAG... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but, since I'm not, I can say...GO TEAM JACKSON!

Photobucket

Pre-Pre-production goes ever on and on...Go Team Jackson!


Tim
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2010, 10:14pm

Post #43 of 79 (535 views)
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Ha ha very true [In reply to] Can't Post

I do think it's ironic that Jackson calls a shoot in E. Europe "moving offshore", when the American unions who are watching two major American studios fund another mega-production in New Zealand have long thought of Jackson's films as already being "offshore". It all depends on what your perspective is.

But it's just more confirmation (not that we really needed any) that he's New Zealand centric in his thinking.


King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 10:24pm

Post #44 of 79 (511 views)
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A fair bit of [In reply to] Can't Post

rhetoric has woven its way through many of the posts and few are more guilty than I on this count.

It is sad really that some facts are dismissed because they are seen as pro-union or anti-union, left or right, good or evil... facts are facts, no? (See, here I go again.) For instance, the fact that anti-union sentiment is so deeply ingrained in our culture that we barely recognize it for what it is anymore can be proven empirically. And yet making a statement as such might be viewed -- dismissed or embraced depending -- as being pro-union. If the statement is true, then it is neither for or against, it is just true.

I agree, that for the most part, people participating in the discussions have been mindful of each other's perspectives and respectful of each person's right to their own opinions. The discussions have been interesting, lively, and at times humourous and heart wrenching all at once. However, unless you were speaking in general terms, I do not think it's fair to suggest that HM called anyone out because she didn't like what they were saying. If she did call someone out we can only guess at her motives. A guess should not be taken as fact.

One fact that has emerged, as you indicate, is that all of us fans want only the best for the production and those involved in its making. On this front we are united.

Another fact that has been demonstrated, yet again, is that TORn is a great place to engage freely in discussions about all matters pertaining to Middle-earth (and a whole bunch of other stuff to boot). We should all take a moment to recognize and be grateful for the unique and precious place that has been provided to us here, and especially for the volunteer staff who hold it all together so well, even in times such as these.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Sep 30 2010, 10:26pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 10:26pm

Post #45 of 79 (514 views)
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New Movie: [In reply to] Can't Post

The workers association that couldn't shoot straight. "No-no you shoot their feet!"

Kangi Ska

Make the Hobbit Happen Now!

Photobucket


squire
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 10:27pm

Post #46 of 79 (481 views)
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That's exactly right. [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be extremely inappropriate for the producers' SPADA organization or Peter Jackson to address an actors' meeting in hopes of "settling" things. Nor is that what MEAA has claimed to be wanting to happen. I don't understand the apparent follies that we are being told MEAA and NZAE are guilty of, but I also don't trust either side to tell us what's going on here in any objective sense. There's no reason why SPADA should be considered to be the good guys here any more than MEAA. There are only ordinary people with conflicting interests here, not angels and demons.

I happen to think Jackson is a very good man and pretty sincere, but even he should understand how these things work. When I was a stage designer, some of our designer/painter union members had become co-owners of scenic shops - because they were experienced scenic artists who wanted to run a better shop and rise a bit in the world. Nevertheless, without giving up their union membership they were also now management, and had a conflicting interest in deciding things like what the union members should be asking for in contract negotiations. I remember being at one pre-contract negotiation meeting for the general membership, and the two very nice guys who were co-owners of shops were politely but firmly asked to leave the meeting. Jackson is in that position too (since he boasts of being a union member - director, I suppose - but he is also the biggest film producer in NZ). He should have known better than to try to be "good old Pete" and attend a meeting that was going to discuss how to deal with him in his producer role.

SPADA doesn't even have the excuse of their executives being union members. They are management, and should meet not with members, but should wait to meet with the members' collectively elected representatives in a situation where the power relationship begins to approximate equality.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Tim
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2010, 10:32pm

Post #47 of 79 (482 views)
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Well said [In reply to] Can't Post

Another fact that has been demonstrated, yet again, is that TORn is a great place to engage freely in discussions about all matters pertaining to Middle-earth (and a whole bunch of other stuff to boot). We should all take a moment to recognize and be grateful for the unique and precious place that has been provided to us here, and especially for the volunteer staff who hold it all together so well, even in times such as these.

*a tear wells and falls*


King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 10:41pm

Post #48 of 79 (479 views)
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Well first shouldn't NZAE become a union before attempting this type of thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

As it is not a chartered organization I think Good ol' Pete had every right to talk to the gathering (all Union procedures aside)

The biggest problem here is the whole situation is so New Zealand that most Citizens of the United States can not understand. Here is a country that is truly small and slow to move into the wonderful global world that the Multinationals are building for us.

Kangi Ska

Make the Hobbit Happen Now!

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 10:43pm

Post #49 of 79 (463 views)
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I thought for a moment that you were going to ask for a moments silence.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska

Make the Hobbit Happen Now!

Photobucket


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Sep 30 2010, 10:45pm

Post #50 of 79 (464 views)
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Rumours of the Hobbit's death have been greatly exagerated. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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