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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 4 2010, 3:01am
Post #26 of 151
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Ok, I've been doing a little archaeology.
In April, 2008, GdT was officially announced as director, with plans to spend four years in NZ. No release schedule mentioned, and it's unclear when this period was to start/started, though the article said he wasn't leaving "immediately" (HBII was scheduled to open in July).
Prior to that, dates of 2010/2011 had been mentioned, but the GdT announcement was delayed by the writer's strike, and in the various 2008 discussions it was assumed that it would slip to 2011/2012.
Assuming the del Toro family (he was talking about the whole family going) moved in fall/winter 2008, 4 years would be fall 2012. And it's been recently mentioned that he'd been there 2 years.
If the current release schedule is now 2012/13 (which seems plausible) and he had to be there the whole time, 2008-2013 would be 5 years, not six. But it isn't green-lit yet, so ...
My guess is they're all throwing numbers off the tops of their heads and it isn't worth trying to pin down too much. Bottom line: it's going to be a lot longer than originally planned, and GdT is a director in great demand who can't afford to sit on the shelf.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jun 4 2010, 3:06am
Post #27 of 151
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I think your evaluation is spot on. You know "throwing numbers off the tops of their heads".
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 4 2010, 4:25am
Post #28 of 151
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In my experience as an attorney
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First of all thanks, for digging up that information. The bottom line is that it pretty much is a delay of one year at this point, not three years as PJ indicated. In my experience, when people are "throwing numbers off the top of their heads" it usually is because they are tying to hide something. Particularly when the numbers differ from the reality as much as they do here.
But maybe this will be the exception that proves the rule.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 4 2010, 7:06am
Post #29 of 151
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It's the open-endedness that's the problem.
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The project isn't green-lit. No one seems to know when it will be. MGM is still in crisis and will be for some indeterminate time. Whatever other issues are holding it up, we cannot know. All spring there was talk of shooting starting this summer; now there's talk of November, but who knows? No one can now say what the schedule is, and insofar as GdT is a director in much demand, with contracts and projects in his pipeline, I don't see how we can criticize him for not being willing to commit to some indefinite term of indenture to a project, however attractive it may be.
He has probably come to the point where as much script development and design work has been done that can be done without that green light, and if it's really delayed indefinitely, it doesn't matter whether the delay is one year or three, it's time to move on.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Altaira
Superuser
Jun 4 2010, 10:35am
Post #30 of 151
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That's exactly what the TORn press release said
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“The bottom line is that Guillermo just didn’t feel he could commit six years to living in New Zealand, exclusively making these films, when his original commitment was for three years."
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Altaira
Superuser
Jun 4 2010, 10:40am
Post #31 of 151
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I agree that the six years comment isn't a complete stretch considering the movies haven't been greenlit yet.
Great summary!
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 4 2010, 1:33pm
Post #32 of 151
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how much the timeline might have been extended as the scripts were being written. Since the time GdT was hired the filming has been increased as the project increased from one movie to two. The time hasn't doubled, but that means more scenes have to be shot, more editing and two cinema releases and press tours.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 4 2010, 2:30pm
Post #33 of 151
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One thing that we know for sure about GdT's contract was that it was for two movies, not for one. From the beginning. The difference was that it changed from one Hobbit and one bridge to two Hobbit films, but that certainly wouldn't account for the increases you are talking about. If anything, it would make the shooting smoother, since it is all one consecutive story. But the announcement when he was first hired was that he was hired to direct two movies. So that is not part of the equation.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 4 2010, 2:36pm
Post #34 of 151
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It's not the six years that I think is a stretch, its the three years
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It seems clear to me from my memory of events -- and from Elizabeth's research -- that GdT's commitment has always been for closer to five years than three years. I agree that the open-endedness of the situation may be the problem, but that has been the case for some time, and by all evidence available to us, it is likely to be cleared up soon. Unless there is something we don't know that suggests that that is not the case. However, if our new friend BoB is telling the truth about his impending audition, that would suggest that things continue to be on track; if things really were that open-ended I doubt that they would be holding auditions for major roles. It just doesn't make sense to me that this would happen now solely because of the greenlight delay.
But I hope to be conclusively proven wrong.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jun 4 2010, 2:49pm
Post #35 of 151
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If Universal was starting to put the heat on about GdT's commitment to them
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it certainly could have caused problems.
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jun 4 2010, 2:50pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 4 2010, 2:54pm
Post #36 of 151
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Although I would suggest that that would indicate that he was over-committed, as delays to a blockbuster project like The Hobbit are the rule, not the exception. I would also suggest that it indicates that his commitment to the Universal projects were more important to him than his commitment to The Hobbit. I have no problem with that being the case, though of course being an obsessed Tolkienist, I would prefer that someone would consider the opportunity to direct a movie based on one of his beloved books as the opportunity of a lifetime.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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Altaira
Superuser
Jun 4 2010, 3:10pm
Post #37 of 151
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Aha. I see where you're coming from now
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You're saying it's not like he had three extra years of commitment all along - more like 5-ish. I do see your point and I think it's' a good one.
On your other point, I think one thing is for sure: there are undoubtedly *many* things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. Perhaps there are windows of opportunity for GDT that have shifted since 2008; something akin to losing the rights to do a project if it's not started within a certain time frame, (not unlike the right to the LOTR and Hobbit movies). We can only speculate at this point, and speculate we will (a la macfalk's comment yesterday). 
The casting has been limping along for months now with no greenlight, so I'm not sure that's the best barometer to use to assess whether things are still on track, and I personally don't think they're still what can be called 'on track.'
My gut feel is that, in addition to some things going on that we may never know, it all boils down to the MGM quagmire. Yes, the films have the potential to make a lot of money. But, as we all know, it takes money to make money and to start a big undertaking like this, it's all about cash flow. Cash outflow to be precise. No prudent investor/business/studio is going to shell out hundreds of millions of dollars to film The Hobbit, only to have it sit in the can on a shelf somewhere because the company with the rights to distribute it (or what's left of the company) is tied up in legal limbo.
Which brings me to one last point I agree with you on - I hope I'm proven wrong! 
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 4 2010, 7:24pm)
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pasi
The Shire
Jun 4 2010, 3:57pm
Post #38 of 151
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Dear Voronwe_the_faithful as always you have the correct answers for this kindy of things, I remember very well your past explanation about the PJ versus New Line.
My point of view since the beginning is about the contract and what you have just write:
"I would prefer that someone would consider the opportunity to direct a movie based on one of his beloved books as the opportunity of a lifetime."
And if that is the case (commitment to the Universal projects) , OK, but GdT need to admit it for the sucess of the future Hobbit production.
This days we saw much "noise" in the internet, and is not so good for all production, MGM and WB.
If GdT wait, perhaps 1 or 2 months I supose that all things can be resolve.
I think from the noticies that I have just saw in the net, that the MGM problem can be resolve very soon.
Best
pasi
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 4 2010, 4:24pm
Post #39 of 151
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I do want to emphasize that I continue to have the utmost respect for Guillermo del Toro, and I respect his decision. If I am particularly dissappointed by it, it is because I have been so impressed by the comments that he has made here and elsewhere which show me that he does have a strong understanding of what makes The Hobbit in particular so beloved. That is why losing him from this project is so hard to take.
In any event, I wish him only the very best in all of his future endeavors, regardless of what we do or don't learn about this sad chapter.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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pasi
The Shire
Jun 4 2010, 4:32pm
Post #40 of 151
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Of course that agree with you and I also think that GdT is a great director, but at this time I have to care about the future of the Hobbit movie.
Perhaps I will remember GdT in the extras of the DVD's
Best
pasi
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jun 4 2010, 7:20pm
Post #41 of 151
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It just boils down to one big (insert expletive of choice) mess! //
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Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jun 4 2010, 7:34pm
Post #42 of 151
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I feel like the tracks were lost long ago
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but that hasn't stopped them from trying to move forward
I picture the train being pushed on the ground, trying to move it forward, even though you can't go as fast if you're off of the tracks, and also trying to find the tracks again so that production can go full-steam ahead
And now the conductor has been lost...
Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens
(This post was edited by Oiotári on Jun 4 2010, 7:34pm)
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Theodred
Lorien
Jun 4 2010, 8:50pm
Post #43 of 151
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Why did GdT have to leave? He could also leave New Zealand for the time being and return the moment they announced the green light. In that period, he could then make a start with his other movie projects, and in the meantime deliberate with PJ and his team in NZ when the situation changed, and then return. Now he left, I guess there will come some others of the crew who also will leave (eventually), and maybe even some actors will lose their interest in TH, leading to the situation that in the end hope abandons PJ and he will decide to abort and pull the plug out of TH, leaving the entire project DEAD...
http://dehobbithyve.hyves.nl/
(This post was edited by Theodred on Jun 4 2010, 8:53pm)
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jun 4 2010, 9:06pm
Post #44 of 151
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Regardless, we still don't know
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how much the scripts changed the plans for shooting.
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pasi
The Shire
Jun 4 2010, 9:11pm
Post #45 of 151
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I agree with you.
Yes, this is the correct point.
Now I have the feeling that the Hobbit project could be in serious trouble:
1- Because the MGM problems (principal reason)
2- GdT leaving the project
3- All crises in Hollywood
4- Great expectation could produce a great fall
5- The old age of Ian (Gandalf)
6- Saultz Zents, is looking...
7- The PJ isolate as a producer
8- The pressure of the fans (like myself)
Best
pasi
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squire
Half-elven
Jun 4 2010, 9:18pm
Post #46 of 151
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It was always going to be two movies
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I have never seen anything about The Hobbit project - as a project, so to speak - ever being anything but two films. Sure, there was the idea of The Hobbit as one film, but it was unbreakably joined in the same production cycle to the "bridge film" which would "fill in" the adventure between the events of The Hobbit and the events of The Lord of the Rings. I even think that Del Toro was hired on the assumption that he would make those two films. If I remember, Jackson then announced only a few months after Del Toro came on board, that they had officially abandoned the bridge film concept, and would henceforth be working on the project as a two-film production of just The Hobbit story. Del Toro suggested that it was he who convinced Jackson and the writers that that was the way to go simply on the basis of the length and complexity of The Hobbit book. (Unconvincingly, as far as I'm concerned. It's called "adaptation". You abridge the book to make it fit the film format. Only if you are already under contract to produce two blockbuster films, and you find that the concept of one of them is fatally flawed, do you decide that the book "has to" be filmed as two features!)
Still, as much as I regret Jackson's initial thoughtless impulse to commit to two films, which will now result in a bloated mega-Hobbit, I can't say that that is the reason for the present debacle. MGM's problems transcend relatively minor bad decisions like a two-film "prequel" to LotR. On the other hand, were this project to be just one film right now, it's conceivable that Del Toro would still be hanging in there, knowing he had only one film to shoot, edit and promote in the 18 months after a greenlight.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Theodred
Lorien
Jun 4 2010, 9:48pm
Post #47 of 151
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A few days ago I've read again the interview in the June 2009 Empire's edition,
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and after I've read the article and watched the photo's, filled with lots of fun, humour, passion and enthusiasm, I've wondered: Where did it all go wrong? At that time, everybody was enjoying themselves about two upcoming Hobbit-movies, and they all eagerly wanted to return to Middle-Earth, but now...??  How did it ever came so far??? It really makes my stomach hurt...
http://dehobbithyve.hyves.nl/
(This post was edited by Theodred on Jun 4 2010, 9:56pm)
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R11
Lorien
Jun 4 2010, 10:13pm
Post #48 of 151
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Thanks for posting those scans
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I'd never seen the article previously. You're right.... it sounded so great... Hopefully it still will be whenever the project eventually gets done (assuming it does...).
ron
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shadowdog
Rohan
Jun 4 2010, 10:29pm
Post #49 of 151
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If a director has an opening in his schedule for a certain time period to direct a film and that film gets delayed month after month after month and he has no idea how long the delays will late, he CAN'T just tell the other scheduled movies that he will show up for an unknown period of time until he has to leave in the middle of shooting THAT film for 3 or 4 years to get back to the first film. What about the actors and others involved in the film that he will start and walk away from? Universal doesn't care about MGMs problems. They are in business to make money. If GDT tries to tell them that he will film part of their films that he has committed to film but that he will stop in the middle for years to do the Hobbit movies he will be legal toast.
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Elven
Valinor
Jun 6 2010, 12:00am
Post #50 of 151
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You probably have seen these?
I was curious of the dates and the those involved ...so I had a dig around -
They may be of no use, I just thought they were interesting ... all that legal wheeling and dealing 
Im glad they're not my repayment documents
http://www.faqs.org/...RM4/p17136exv4w1.htm
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