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macfalk
Valinor
Apr 24 2010, 12:15pm
Post #52 of 99
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Well it stretched out for quite some time, didnt it
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Magpie
Immortal
Apr 24 2010, 12:48pm
Post #53 of 99
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...be considered the middle of production of a movie that is not even greenlit yet in the first quarter of 2010? Again... it may be my poor understanding but for 2008 to be the middle.. production would have to have started considerably prior to 2008 in an amount of time fairly equal to that between 2008 and the release date.
I think the heart of it is, things like lawsuits don't function on what seems nice or polite... especially to parties unconnected with the lawsuit. They function on what the law requires (in terms of timing or approach) and on what the parties think will put them in the best advantage. You might feel the Tolkien Estate was amiss in some manner of who they talked to or when the filed the suit, but the reasons prompting you to say that probably have little to no sway over the parties involved. What is your opinion on the very similar lawsuits filed separately by Jackson (not sure what 'entity' did the filing... was it Wingnut) and by an assortment of minor actors who felt cheated out of their promise recompense? Do you fault them in some way? Is it merely the timing of the Tolkien lawsuit that bothers you? Should they have said, 'gee.. this might disrupt Hobbit production so perhaps we can forego the millions of dollars that NewLine has failed to pay us.'? Would you say that? I found this quote in an old article:
According to the suit, although the "Lord of the Rings" films produced by New Line are among the most financially successful films ever created, with worldwide gross receipts of nearly $6 billion, New Line has failed to pay the plaintiffs any portion of the gross profit participation to which they are entitled under their deal. (emphasis mine because that's a pretty shocking situation if true... and since the Tolkien Estate won... we can assume it was either true or close to true.)
Before you get fussed over the Tolkien Estate, why not get really fussed over NewLine? They did this to a lot of people and the small potatoes can't get much recompense until the big potatoes - with their bigger resources - start to take stands on this sort of thing.
I don't think anyone has to ever apologize for asking for their fair and negotiated share of profits. It doesn't matter whether your Peter Jackson, Christopher Tolkien, Sarah MacLeod or Craig Parker.
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Apr 24 2010, 1:55pm
Post #54 of 99
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Somehow I've missed this topic so far. I've enjoyed reading others' thoughts on the matter. I didn't know that Christopher had seen any of the movies, so Solictor's news is news to me. If I might venture a few ramblings -
I've met CT, once. Or at least, we passed each other in the corridor at the Tolkien Centenary Conference held at Keble College Oxford in August 1992 and we 'Good-morninged' each other. He's a very shy man, and we'd been asked not to pester him with questions during the conference. Our reward was to hear him read 'The New Shadow' at the Sheldonian Theatre. Spellbinding stuff. (we delegates were also given a signed card, and a copy of a tape of JRR reading his 'Beorhtnoth'. oung Christopher read the introduction, and 'Ofermod'.) He is, as I've seen him (on tape as well as in real life) a very civilized man; and as I say, rather reserved.
On the other hand, his sister Priscilla is a lovely, outgoing person, and full of stories of her father - a 'keeper' of Tolkien family lore. I've attended many Oxonmoots in the past, and Priscilla would keep us all enthralled with her wit and warmth. Sadly, the good lady has now 'retired' from her unofficial role as family rep - not getting any younger, you understand. I hadn't heard anything she may have said about the movies - the subject didn't come up when I was around. Royd is as charming as he looks; again, a little reserved. I think it might be a family trait. But we can have a laugh with him, too.
I'm glad someone mentioned Christopher's good relations with the Tolkien artists. I've met and spoke to many of them in my time (and got most of my stuff signed, too) -  - one of my main passions in Tolkien studies/collecting is Tolkien-related art. Once again, I hadn't heard of their dealings with Christopher - well, not much. I think someone might have brought up the subject in a Q&A session with Ted. But I do know several of the Tolkien authors pretty well; and, without giving too much away, my impression is that young Christopher has high standards when it comes to presenting his father's work. As indeed he should; JRR left him his unpublished material in order that he may publish it or not, in such a way as he sees fit; including the option of destroying any or all of it. Thank goodness he didn't go for the destruction option!
For more has been published since Tolkien's death than was ever published in his lifetime, and the pieces which Christopher has not edited himself have been edited by some very able hands, in collaboration with him. A true gent, is Christopher; and he's done such a work with his father's unpublished material as could not have been done by anyone else. We owe him (and Priscilla and the rest of the Tolkien family) a great debt.
(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 24 2010, 1:59pm)
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Apr 24 2010, 6:11pm
Post #55 of 99
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Another hidden treasure! Magpie, you are amazing.
Of course, my first thought was that I need a new link collection with that sort of interview. And then I remembered how many there would be for the main cast and crew and realised it would be the nightmare of the century to put that together 
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
TORn Link Collection
TORn Travelling Journal website
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 24 2010, 8:09pm
Post #56 of 99
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We concluded that most artists go for wings just because they're more dramatic-looking and they can't resist them. And shadowiness is hard to draw. 
Incidentally, I'd love to know CT's opinion on Balrog wings. I imagine he must have one.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Apr 24 2010, 8:32pm
Post #57 of 99
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I believe you are vastly mistaken...
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I think in Christopher we have very largely what the professor would have had. Read the biographies and at many points the professor speaks to Carpenter as if his knowledge of the length and breadth of the legendarium was as great as Tolkien's own.
It is my opinion that Tolkien (JRR and Christopher) view film, at least regarding JRR's work, in a very different way than FarFromHome does and, perhaps though I cannot say for certain, more the way I do. It is my contention that any work of any author should be treated with respect from filmmakers, artists and anyone else. I derive this personally because while I'm a fair writer I'm no good whatsoever with any other artistic medium. So when I describe something in detail and the only thing an artist of another medium gets right is the gender of the subject, it's troublesome to me. I'm all for interpretations and as such I'm not quite as disappointed with the rendering of the Nazgul as I am on many other points in the films. That said, if Tolkien wrote it, to my mind and way of thinking that's how it should have been presented in the films. No changes. No ands, ifs, nor buts. There was and remains lots of room for interpretations and some of what Mr Jackson and company did delighted me (Hobbiton, for example).
To support your supposition, the professor liked best works that allowed for maximum interpretation (hence the illustrations by Dutch artist Cor Block (sp?)) because those were highly stylized and not exacting. Whether that was because he did not wish his own images disturbed by something more realistically rendered or not we'll never know.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Apr 24 2010, 8:38pm
Post #58 of 99
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Thanks for the post, geordie...
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You've had some experiences I would give much to have had and met folk I would much desire to meet. Nice to live vicariously through your post.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Apr 24 2010, 9:57pm
Post #59 of 99
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- though looking back at my post, I can see a couple of annoying typos I'd have liked to have been able to sort out.
I also agree with your sentiment that JRR would not have liked the movies; for various reasons. In my opinion he would have disliked intensely the movie-makers' insistence on making up their own 'Elvish' dialogue. See for example his displeasure and frustration when translators would fiddle with his languages when translating LotR into other languages. He'd have had a word or two to say about the liberties which Mr Salo took, I should think.
Speaking personally, the movies haven't done much (if anything) to enhance my enjoyment of 'Tolkien' and all that but then, as Verlyn Flieger says in an interview in 'More People's Guide to JRR Tolkien' (The One Ring net, 2005), the movies aren't aimed at me.
(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 24 2010, 9:59pm)
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Apr 24 2010, 10:10pm
Post #60 of 99
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The movies were "aimed" at about the halfway point betwixt fans like you and I (at least I perceive our views to be similar) and the "average movie-goer", presumably American, but probably to a lesser extent movie-goers world-wide who might have some well-drummed-in visions of what to expect out of film (H'wood has spent a LONG time building "brand"). While good Kangi Ska has pointed out how many have read the books because of seeing the films, that would have been true regardless because it was never the intent of the movies to cause a single new reader. That would have been the effect no matter what so it never needed to be an intent. Kangi does make a very valid point, however, that the best of intentions cannot be carried through because of how many hands are in the honeypot, as it were, when making a movie.
Thanks also for your vignettes from "The Bird and Baby" as Tolkien and his fellows called "The Eagle and Child". I had a lunch there back in 2002 and it was good to sit and think of what the walls might have been able to tell me as I ate and had a bitters. Your visits were certainly more interesting than the musings of a Tolkien-pilgrim tramping about the sites of his life in Oxford.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Apr 24 2010, 10:14pm
Post #61 of 99
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- almost forgot:
"To support your supposition, the professor liked best works that allowed for maximum interpretation (hence the illustrations by Dutch artist Cor Block (sp?)) "
yeah, it's Cor Blok. There's a piece by Mr Blok on his work in the Dutch Tolkien Society publication 'Lembas Extra: Proceedings of the 5th Unquendor Lustrum 2006'. Very interesting. I'm a bit ambivalent about Blok's work; it seems simple - I would say 'primitive' rather than childish. But I'm warming to him a bit now, after having read his piece, and esp. after seeing two of his works at Oxonmoot last year. As always, seeing original works of art is a vastly different experience to seeing reproductions in books etc.
For example, me and mrs g. took advantage to see the small exhibition of Tolkien's works at the Bodleian Library last month. Waited half an hour in a queue to see three pictures (but what pictures!) - The Hill; and Conversation with Smaug; and Bilbo comes to the huts of the raft-Elves! As well as a page of calligraphic doodles, and Tolkien's original design for the dust-wrapper of The Hobbit (swoon). And the Bodleian's copy of the book which, oddly, is missing its wrapper!
Still; wandering off-topic here.
(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 24 2010, 10:15pm)
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Apr 24 2010, 11:05pm
Post #62 of 99
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"While good Kangi Ska has pointed out how many have read the books because of seeing the films, that would have been true regardless because it was never the intent of the movies to cause a single new reader."
Yes... How many have read the books, I wonder? I mean, how many have bought them and not gotten very far, because they find they are so different to what they expected? I see this argument now and again on other forums; often it's apparent that many movie-goers have to 'unlearn' what they've gathered from the movies when they come to read the books. For example, the fact that Frodo is not a wimp. This sort of misunderstanding does seem rife among those who come to the story via pJ's lens. ( Though it has to be said that I've not been around this forum long enough to see whether or not that can be said to be the case here).
I don't know how to answer this; the distinction between the books and the movies seems to me to be a bit of a red herring. Often we are reminded that the two media are different; well, duh! Surely the thing that matters here is the _story_. Certainly the story did not need the movies to attract new readers - The Lord of the Rings had been enjoyed by tens of millions of readers for decades, before the movies were made. It was voted 'Book of the Century' in three or four polls held in the UK during 1999. This long-standing popularity may have been a deciding factor in pJ's choice of the project, don'tcha think?
(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 24 2010, 11:05pm)
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Apr 24 2010, 11:15pm
Post #63 of 99
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He's said on many occasions that he chose to make these because of how much he loved the books and I believe him on that score.
I honestly think that because Jackson's films were well-received that more people picked up the books than if the movies had been panned, but certainly even if they had bombed some of the viewers would still have picked up the books.
I agree, movie-Frodo was frightfully wimpy compared to book-Frodo.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 25 2010, 12:05am
Post #64 of 99
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strikes me as an argument in support of my view, not against it as you seem to think. If Tolkien liked Cor Blok, then he seems to have liked interpreters of his work to use their own imaginations and to represent his story not literally but in their own, allusive way.
I see your point that he may have liked the stylized work of Blok precisely because it's stylized and not "realistic", and I agree that he may not have liked PJ's attempt to make the story appear historically real - that's something we can't really know. But the basic point I was making, that Tolkien was not wedded to literal, "purist" interpretations of his work seems to be borne out by his liking for Blok.
I get the impression, based only on second- and third-hand things that I have read, that Christopher Tolkien is much more focused on accuracy and faithfulness - that's been his own approach to his father's work, as far as I can see (the artists he prefers also seem to take that approach), and I can well understand that he would not be much impressed by someone with much less knowledge than himself taking far more liberties with his father's work than he had ever felt appropriate even for himself.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2010, 8:12am
Post #65 of 99
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- but being new here, I'm still getting used to finding my way around. You say:
"(Cor Blok) strikes me as an argument in support of my view, not against it as you seem to think."
- I wasn't arguing against your view - could you remind me where your post is? Thanks.
At any rate, I certainly wasn't saying that Tolkien wouldn't have enjoyed artists using their imagination in depicting scenes or episodes from his stories. Cor Blok is a shining example of this; Tolkien liked his pictures so much that he bought two of them, and Blok made a present of a third.
But neither can we make this a case that Tolkien was keen for a free-for all. (I know that's not what's being said here, but there does seem to be a school of thought on the Web which insists that this is what he meant in his letter to Waldman - 'Other hands, and all that). Tolkien knew his own mind; none better. He knew a bit about pictorial art, and he knew what he liked. Take for instance his favourite illustrator, Pauline Baynes. Tolkien was delighted with her pictures for Farmer Giles of Ham - in a letter to Pauline, he says that some of his friends reckoned they reduced his text to a commentary on the pictures. On the other hand, he could only be polite when he saw the vignettes of characters which Pauline had made for an illustrated poster Map of Middle earth - when the poster was shown to him at the offices of Allen & Unwin, all he could bring himself to say was, 'Well. There they are!' He gave away some signed copies of that poster, and do you know, he cut off their tops and bottoms, because they had those pictures on? One came up for auction several years ago.
As for Christopher; I too get the impression that he's a stickler for accuracy, and quite right too, when it comes to publication of his father's work, both written and also his artistic output. And he's as hard on himself as anyone else in this matter. For example, Christopher felt he had to correct a mistake of his in interpreting a picture by his father of Moria Gate. (he made this error in a book called 'Pictures by Tolkien. He published his correction in an issue of the Tolkien Society's bullettin Amon Hen)
But I'm not so sure we can make a cut and dried argument based on what we think might be Christopher's taste in the works of Tolkien artists - I have many different copies of all editions of Tolkien's works, with cover art by various artists (as the saying goes); and if Christopher were so hard-nosed in these matters, then how would Roger Garland's somewhat unorthodox depiction of Middle earth have escaped his steely glance?
(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 25 2010, 8:13am)
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Starling
Half-elven
Apr 25 2010, 8:14am
Post #66 of 99
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That got me thinking, thanks!
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2010, 8:18am
Post #67 of 99
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- I did say that I'm new around here, didn't I? I've just realized that I've just spent a terrific amount of time 'answering' a post by FarFromHome when all along it was GAndyelf that he was replying to.
Oops. Oh well; all I can do is apologize to all concerned, and ask that my post be left up, if only 'cos it took me so long to write.
(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 25 2010, 8:20am)
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Apr 25 2010, 8:55am
Post #68 of 99
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Almost 1800 posts in and I still get confused at points. Now where was that...! //
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Kangi Ska
There is no place like the Shire...There is no place like the Shire...There is no place like the Shire...
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 25 2010, 9:33am
Post #69 of 99
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Everyone around has been new at some time; and so far your posts have been a delight to read - informative and well thought-out, while often amusing as well. It's great that you've joined!
But if you really and truly want to be embarrassed - you have a much better cause to be so in calling Barbara (that's FarFromHome) a "he"... 
A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.
"...Still, undespairing, do we sometimes slowly file
Discursive threads regardless of our doom..."
- squire.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 25 2010, 9:54am
Post #70 of 99
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I should have quoted some of the post I was answering to make things clearer. I have the opposite problem to you - I've been here so long that I still have the habits I learned on the old board that TORn used to have, when there was no need to quote because the structure made it clear which post was being answered. When I remember, I do include a quote, but sometimes I forget, and I forgot today...
And as others have said, please don't be embarrassed. You always write very interesting and well-reasoned posts, and this one was no exception. No way should it be taken down!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 25 2010, 10:07am
Post #71 of 99
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that Tolkien appears not to have liked the work Pauline Baynes did for LotR?
On the other hand, he could only be polite when he saw the vignettes of characters which Pauline had made for an illustrated poster Map of Middle earth - when the poster was shown to him at the offices of Allen & Unwin, all he could bring himself to say was, 'Well. There they are!' He gave away some signed copies of that poster, and do you know, he cut off their tops and bottoms, because they had those pictures on?
I've seen very small reproductions of those vignettes on the web, and I'd always assumed that Tolkien liked them and would have liked her to do more illustrations for LotR. But I don't really know the story, and if I've understood what you're saying correctly, that's a fascinating new bit of information for me. I like her whimsical take on medieval style, and I'd always assumed Tolkien did too. But then, Farmer Giles is pretty whimsical, whereas LotR, of course, is not. Maybe that was the problem?
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2010, 10:24am
Post #72 of 99
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- sorry - ought to have checked FarFromHome's profile. 
Thanks for the heads-up, Sador; and thanks to all for your kind words regarding my posts. I'm still feeling my way round (obviously) and I'm enjoying my time here.
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2010, 10:36am
Post #73 of 99
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"Are you saying that Tolkien appears not to have liked the work Pauline Baynes did for LotR? "
Well, he wasn't too pleased with the figures she did for the Fellowship on that poster. Interestingly enough, there was a BBC radio programme some time ago, presented by Brian Sibley. They played archive recordings of folk who knew Tolkien (Elaine Griffiths had a lovely voice!) And in her piece, Pauline Baynes recalled how once she'd asked Tolkien about how he wanted his characters in LotR portrayed - how should she draw the hobbits? she asked. And, she said, he 'got quite testy', and said 'they're just people!' I don't think Pauline heard about his cutting off her friezes from the posters he gave away.. have you seen it? Tolkien said that her Gollum looks like the Michelin man. he's right, too.
On the other hand, to show that one ought to be wary of making generalisations about Tolkien and the way his mind worked (not to mention his taste) - he loved Pauline's triptych which she painted for the box for the Allen & Unwin de luxe set of LotR in 1963. Two panels of this triptych were also used for the covers of the first one-volume paperback edition of 1968. It is stunning - and Tolkien liked it so much, he asked to have it on permanent loan for his study.
To see what Pauline made of hobbits, take a look at The Adventures of Tom Bombadil; her illustrations for Perry the Winkle and Bombadil Goes Boating. They are delightful, but consider - the hobbit folk all have shoes!
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 25 2010, 12:14pm
Post #74 of 99
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....he loved Pauline's triptych which she painted for the box for the Allen & Unwin de luxe set of LotR in 1963. Two panels of this triptych were also used for the covers of the first one-volume paperback edition of 1968.
That paperback was the first copy of LotR I ever owned, and it's spoiled me for any I've had since. I lent it to friends a few years later, and their toddler ripped the cover so they bought me a three-volume set to replace it. But three volumes still doesn't seem right to me, and I've only bought one-volume editions for myself.
Now I have that Pauline Baynes image as the cover of my ebook version of LotR - I can't afford to replace the paperback I had, I've checked eBay and they're worth a fortune now...
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 25 2010, 3:14pm
Post #75 of 99
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Tolkien wrote lengthy comments --some 31 pages, apparently-- about Baynes's LOTR poster, which were quoted without reference to Baynes on multiple occassions in Christina Scull and Wayne Hammond's J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide, and more explicitly but at less length in John Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit. Scull and Hammond comment on their use of the essay here, where correspondence from Rateliff is also cited.
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