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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Is anyone else worried about the fact that "The Hobbit" is going to be turned into two movies?
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Forum Admin / Moderator

Jun 23 2009, 3:05pm

Post #51 of 81 (1459 views)
I will admit that... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I initially did see "returning talent" i.e., WETA, John Howe, Alan Lee, etc. as a way to "rein you in". I admit I was wary about what having you as the director of these movies would entail, because I wanted a Middle-earth that was the exact same one I'd seen in LOTR, and I expected you to be a stand-in for PJ to deliver that to us.

But that was well over a year ago (maybe more... the time has flown) when you first joined this project.

Ever since then you've been sharing your experiences with us, your thoughts about these stories, your vision for these movies and your intentions about handling the material, and I've slowly come to realize that it was immature of me to expect you to be someone else (meaning PJ) while making these films. It wasn't any one thing you said, it was bits and pieces of your comments from numerous posts here on TORn and from interviews elsewhere that make me now "want" you to do these films. I feel that you're part of the Tolkien family because you respect his material. You're a brilliant filmmaker, one who cares about the source material (as can be seen from your comments), and so I'm not just "okay" with you bringing your vision to these movies, I'm "excited" to see your vision of them.

I will admit though, that I do have apprehensions about how these movies will turn out, but I would have the same apprehensions even if PJ was directing these films. That's how it will always be when a book someone holds dear is being adapted to a film.

Yet although I haven't had a peep of anything thus far, your reassurances alone have me trusting that your movies will someday be able to stand alongside PJ's trilogy in a way that the GDT-PJ pentology can be viewed as one coherent adaptation of Tolkien's works.

"Crows and Gibbets! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater sires."


Jun 23 2009, 5:05pm

Post #52 of 81 (1430 views)
If you want to know the truth... [In reply to] Can't Post

I was delighted to hear of your involvement, because I was hoping you could rein in PJ's excesses. Laugh

Seriously, though, I want to see someone else's Middle-earth, and if it's not exactly like PJ's LOTR, I don't have a problem with that. If it's nothing like PJ's LOTR, I don't have a problem with that, either. I don't ask for continuity. I just ask for a respectful treatment of Tolkien's themes and characters. It sounds, from what you're saying, that you are doing just that, so I've had no cause for alarm, especially since the bridge film idea has been abandoned.

"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever."
"And he has Brains."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brains."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."

- A. A. Milne

Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Jun 23 2009, 9:57pm

Post #53 of 81 (1423 views)
I agree completely... [In reply to] Can't Post

I was not enamored of many of PJ's changes to the original material; on the other hand, I prefer many of GDT's films to Peter Jackson's offerings, as they are less heavy-handed and not dependent on horror schlock that PJ seemingly revels in. GDT is much more poetic in his rendering of stories. There are allusions and things left unsaid -- just as if the director expects his audience to to be a bit intelligent and pick out different elements of the story all by themselves! If you have ever watched 'The Devil's Backbone' (perhaps an even better movie than Pan's Labyrinth, if I may be so bold), there is a lyrical nature to the story, and the special effects are sublimated and not hamhanded like PJ's 'Look at all the money I just spent on this CGI effect!'

In any case, I too am looking for a different treatment to The Hobbit, along with the 'whimsy' GDT has promised. After all, there are many genuinely funny scenes in The Hobbit and the story is indeed much lighter than LotR.

Two novel-length stories nominated for 2009 MEFAs--





Jun 24 2009, 3:49am

Post #54 of 81 (1399 views)
Truly! [In reply to] Can't Post

1 film=a travelogue, a fold out brochure of sights to be seem via tour bus hustled from stop to stop,''bus leaves in 10 minutes, don't be late!"
Immersion into something means to 'dwell'.
Running across the country on the Interstate does not, an exploration make.
GT loves the Hobbit and that tells me it will speak to him. That is all i need to know:).

''What connects Nature to the spiritual, or requires the presence of the latter? In positive terms, as Alkis Kontos points out, when nature was still largely experienced as integral, alive and active, 'It was the spiritual dimension of the world, its enchanted, magical quality that rendered it infinite, not amenable to complete calculability; spirit could not be quanified; it permitted and invited mythologization.' And I would add, it still is and does.''
Patrick Curry-Defending Middle-Earth-Tolkien: Myth and Modernity - chapter: 'The Sea: Spirituality and Ethics.'

May the grace of ManwŰ let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of ManwŰ S˙limo


Jun 24 2009, 3:00pm

Post #55 of 81 (1395 views)
Reining in or holding on.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I initially did see "returning talent" i.e., WETA, John Howe, Alan Lee, etc. as a way to "rein you in". I admit I was wary about what having you as the director of these movies would entail, because I wanted a Middle-earth that was the exact same one I'd seen in LOTR, and I expected you to be a stand-in for PJ to deliver that to us.

I didn't see it as 'reining in' exactly, more as an assurance of - well, harmony, if you like, between something that has become loved and familiar now and something new, walking the same path. It's an initial response, a reaching-out for pointers to feel secure about in a new film we're all longing to applaud and enjoy. When you care about a book, the adaptation really matters.

This is exactly how I felt about 'Fellowship'. I knew nothing about the film until a few months before it came out, when I saw first the promotional books. I had to buy one to find about about it and having loved Tolkien's writing from childhood my fist reaction to some of the pictures and hints of the film story was to shudder at the changes I could see. Especially Lurtz, and the loss of Glorfindel. I'd never heard of Peter Jackson then: the only thing that gave me hope was the involvement of Alan Lee. It may me feel there would be something in the film that would harmonise with the illustrated book, which I already knew I loved.

But it's only a first response.

When it comes to added scenes, I'm going to break ranks and say I hope there will be some in 'The Hobbit' films and I'm trusting GDT to find some within the story itself and the appendix material that will surprise and delight me the way the best ones in 'LotR' did - the finding and return of Theodred, for example, and his funeral; the scenes with Boromir and Faramir together; Gandalf and the moth; actually seeing the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog, the Aragorn and Arwen story - things that felt like being giving an extra piece of 'Lord of the Rings' and took me back to the books, eventually enlarging my vision of them. I'm not just looking for 'that's exactly how I pictured it', I'd like some 'I never thought of it like that before' moments as well...

Forum Admin / Moderator

Jun 24 2009, 3:34pm

Post #56 of 81 (1363 views)
I completely agree with you... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I want to see a world that is familiar and yet new in a surprising way, and as I said, I've begun trusting in GDT, PJ, etc. to deliver that to us.

Also, I see what you mean about "holding on" as opposed to "reining in". The reason my thoughts were like that back in the day was because I was afraid that GDT would "do his own thing", and so I was counting on returning talent to bring him and his vision back in line with what was familiar and established.

But like I said, I know it was wrong of me to think (or even expect) that. I remember Alan Lee saying somewhere that his work on LOTR was not to satisfy himself, but to help bring PJ's vision to life. And now that I trust GDT's intent with the material, I don't see Alan Lee (and the others) as leading the way for GDT to follow. I see them in the same role they played a decade ago, but this time working to bring GDT's vision to life.

I like what you said about added scenes - the scenes you described are some of many that I am grateful for because they enhance the Middle-earth of the books without being contradictory to it. So yes, I would love to see such scenes in the new movies as long as they are in keeping with the material, and it looks like we will probably get them too, seeing as the White Council and Dol Guldur storyline are being explored. And this is exactly what I spoke of in my previous post when I said I trust GDT because I've learnt that he respects the source material, because only someone who respects an original work can do justice in adding something to it.

Btw, I don't think I've welcomed you on the boards yet. So WELCOME!!!! Smile

"Crows and Gibbets! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater sires."


Jun 24 2009, 9:51pm

Post #57 of 81 (2023 views)
Dear Farmer Maggot- [In reply to] Can't Post

Your words moved me deeply and I think this is such a clear, elegant way to refocus any and all discussions past and present-

We are indeed conceiving these two films as part of a larger entity AS WELL as representing the book within them.

Therefore the HOBBIT narrative and beats and tone etc will not exist as a standalone but will have "long lines" that will actually be carried through the existing Trilogy and will illuminate it in a different way.

I believe this can be done. The experience of seeing both Hobbit movies will contain the same iconic beats that exist in the book but they will be enhanced by the Dol Guldur / Necromancer moments.

This i not an "This OR That" but a "This AND That" point of view, since, inevitably, for most people, this films will exist as part of a larger Geopolitical landscape and in our minds this exponentially grows the appeal of the tale-

Think about it- In a strange way that's what happens the further you dive into the Tolkien Universe... things form an astonishing "Mandala" of characters and places and facts. That was an experience that, in my case, sent shivers down my spine every time I came to a fork on the road and I was able to see the connective tissue and the astonishing possibilities behind it.

The experience of reading the book, for all of us, is encapsulated in a place and a time that solidifies it forever. That "imprint" is unique to each reader the world around and, like fingerprints, it becomes distinctive and irreplaceable.

The same goes for the films- many a Tolkien fan in recent years got his / her start with the movie PJ and the gang made so the Hobbit has, by imprimatur, a double allegiance and at the same time the duty to expand and present things anew-

So- in this I am going by my compass but hand-in-hand with them... I am trying to explore the avenues that enhance my memories of reading that book or my love for the LOTR films and I'm doing it with the best team possible. Nothing we are adding feels (to any of us) as a minus but rather a plus

So, my vows-

It is my solemn duty to make THE HOBBIT the best film viewing experience that the medium can provide. We want to make these movies as unique and powerful and new for you and your children as our group of artists and craftsmen can. We want to challenge all of us into creating something we've never sen, rather than solely reproducing it- and perhaps, in some measure, rather than looking back and arguing about what was or could have been, we may smile in luring more and more readers and viewer into experiencing the Universe created long ago by the Professor.

I thank you for your kind and wise words and refreshing clarity-

Yr Obt Svt


(This post was edited by Guillermo on Jun 24 2009, 9:57pm)

Guardian of the Galaxy / Moderator

Jun 25 2009, 3:21am

Post #58 of 81 (1337 views)
I think it's the connections [In reply to] Can't Post

in Tolkien that bring me back to re-reading so many times over the last thirty years. There's always a new connection to find and explore, and remindes me once again of the genius of his writing.

I think Peter et. al. achieved the same in the films, as much as the movie landscape can do that. So we have the trolls, just standing there, reminding us that Frodo's journey was not the first.

Best of luck in your efforts! 2011 seems so far away, but I know when we get there we'll look back on this time and remember the struggles and uncertainty, and we'll laugh.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.

`Are these magic cloaks? ' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.

`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.

NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Jun 25 2009, 8:40am

Post #59 of 81 (1361 views)
I was glad for your involvement from Pan's Labryinth on [In reply to] Can't Post

Because that film spoke to a skill at crafting and relaying the wonder of a fairytale. And the Hobbit is much more an epic fairytale than it is a sweeping LOTR style epic saga. My hope, of course, is that all parts are complimentary. I saw your Hellboy II Elves, so I harbour no fears that Elrond or Glorfindel (should we finally be blessed to have a speaking Glorfindel on The Council Wink) will have six eyes and tentacle arms. Beyond that, I am actually looking forward to your more colourful influence. There were many pure PJ choices that I lamented in LORT, as much as I enjoyed the work overall. I was less than keen, for instance, on how much of Gandalf's trademark fire enchantments were cut out due to Peter's personal distate for exlosive magic. So, from the start, I have been quite comfortable with the idea of a new hand having a heavy influence and working alongside Peter. . . and again Pan's Labryinth in particular enhanced my faith in your abilities to do justice to this work.

As to Dol Guldur, again, I have always felt there was a place for it in a two movie scenario. My discomfort, as I mentioned, has more to do with how getting through the opening film with no Smaug interaction will come across.

But I am all for seeing Dol Guldur/White Council material, and the exposition of Gandalf's fears for The Elves in particular. By LOTR the ring has been found, and The Elves are largely resigning themsleves to depart the world, either because a Tyrant will soon dominate it, or because the preservative powers of their rings will be abolished with the destruction of The One. The Elves in The Hobbit are still very much a part of Middle Earth. . . and Gandalf is deeply troubled with concern for them. I always felt that the potential loss of Rivendell and Lothlorien was one of the most significant of the quickly bypassed topics of Third Age lore.

From all I have read, I think your general approach concerning tone etc. is perfect. I remain a little skiddish about the placement of the break. . . but I won't fixate on that. Thank you as always for posting here and for taking such interest in we fans.

In Reply To
I take no offense. truly- but this is perhaps a good time to clarify two things that pop up now and then:

1) Some people post as if my involvement is big news (good or bad) and some even hope (others fear) that perhaps my involvement will be palliated and limited by the fact that WETA is involved or Howard Shore or Alan and John, etc as if I fall under "damage control" by using the same team of this or that team...

Some, more gentle in their critique, just use the word vision with quotation marks and pray for PJ to restrain me...

So, look, let me clarify these choices (Alan, John, Howard) are already my choices- Not only I never fought them- I personally urged these artists and to come back as part of the realization of the vision I have for these films. They were not brought on board as an insurance policy against my personality...

The more you are familiar with my work, the more you'll ease or increase your anxieties- but if you go from an incomplete view (only PANS LABYRINTH or only BLADE II, say) the more you will remain in an uneasy twilight-

IF you are familiar with all my work and you still have anxieties, chances are that you may have some ground to be wary of those tendencies to pop up somehow, somewhere....

B) The part that may bring the palette and tone one shade darker than the book is the Geo-political / Dol-Guldur portions, which add considerable gravity to Gandalf's quest and the origins of the map and key, but i truly believe that they will make for a much more satisfying film narrative at the end of the day.

Once again, if you seek my posting in other topics you will find that I have often, and unprompted, used that exact word: WHIMSY to describe one of the many things that will differentiate LOTR and TH.

Peter and I have said it, time and again, this will not be an exercise in mimicry of style and I will NOT be trying to emulate PJ's style or achievements but I do intend to respectfully build up on them-

In my mind, the mistake would be to approach THE HOBBIT as if it needs the exact same tools and look as LOTR, they are quite different in tone and in look and deserve to feel like tales that can be viewed together and exist in the same universe and Mithology but that can also stand on their own.

The challenges of the book and the added material is enormous since it includes many passages and moments that are iconic but difficult to translate to film- others just require of intelligence and hard work. It is my hope that in the not so distant future images, teasers etc will slowly unveil the personality and majesty of our enterprise to you all and then you can decide if you like what we are doing or not.

In the meantime I remain,

Sincerely Yours


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

farmer maggot

Jun 25 2009, 10:17am

Post #60 of 81 (1381 views)
Yet again, Snr. Del Toro [In reply to] Can't Post

you are prepared to give us yet more insight and clariity on your intentions for The Hobbit, which fit exactly with my wishes for these films. And with that comes such a direct, open-hearted and brave commitment to the quality you are determioned to achieve!

It is that similar commitment that still staggers me when watching PJ's film trilogy, the unswerving commitment of so many skilled and capable people for so long to making the vision of Tolkein's world, and the story telling, so rich, detailed and compelling. I cannot think of another equivalent in cinema. The phrase 'crafted in loving detail' could have been coined for this!

I think it is sometimes too easy on this forum, where everyone is so involved and knowledgable about Tolkein's legendarium, to forget the incredible achievement of the film trilogy in introducing that legendarium to such a vast global audience who will mostly never have heard of LOTR or Tolkien. It is like having a million campfire storytellers across the world telling this mythology to all the generations at once (almost). How many then turned to the books because of this (in my case came back to them)? Surely any author writes to be read and have their stories told?

If the Hobbit can repeat that effect for a fresh generation and an even wider range of audiences then you will have another truly remarkable achievement to celebrate. My younger children will be 12 and 8 in 2011 and are already waiting to see what all the fuss is about!

The Hobbit story has always had one contradiction for me; I have always seen Bilbo as a basically good and honest character (as befits a good-hearted hobbit) who was drawn in to becoming a 'burglar' by pressure and circumstance (his actions with the Arkenstone reflect this). We are later told that this inherenent quality is what allows him to resist the ring's corruption for so long. Yet he immediately and willingly 'steals' the ring from Gollum, knowing it is a;most certtainly his, and even taunts Gollum with it in his riddles. Surely this is the power of the ring now seeking to be found but was this subconciously in Tolkien's mind well before writing and constructing the LOTR mythology? Was the story of the ring already in Tolkien's mind? Did the ring perhaps leave Gollum to actively play a part in creating conflict between the Middle Earth races who were separately resisting the Necromaner?

I know JRRT later re-wrote parts of The Hobbit to cement the link with LOTR but I do not know the detail - I will ask these questions elsewhere on these boards since the Tolkien scholars can surely answer.

Thanks again for taking the time for these conversations and insights - with the hopes and good wishes of so many, a great endevour is in your hands.


Jun 25 2009, 10:30am

Post #61 of 81 (1321 views)
connections and so on.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree absolutely. On my very first reading it was that sense of immeasurable distances in time that lay behind the immediate story of LotR that captivated me - the way everything seemed to have its own history stretching way and way back, so you knew that there would always be more to find out about.

I think they did honour this in the films. Little details like the ring of Barahir were a particular joy because, much as I loved the Silmarillion stories surrounding the ring, I'd never connected it with Aragorn before...

... and reading this:


. . . We want to challenge all of us into creating something we've never sen, rather than solely reproducing it- and perhaps, in some measure, rather than looking back and arguing about what was or could have been, we may smile in luring more and more readers and viewer into experiencing the Universe created long ago by the Professor.

... I can only say 'thank you, Guillermo - I'm smiling already!!'

Guardian of the Galaxy / Moderator

Jun 25 2009, 2:26pm

Post #62 of 81 (1339 views)
The changes [In reply to] Can't Post

occur mostly in the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter. I would suggest "The Annotated Hobbit" by Douglas Anderson which has an excellent summary of the changes that Tolkien wove into the story. In the original version, the Ring was valuable but not evil. It did make the wearer invisible, but that was the extent of its powers. Bilbo won the riddle game as is currently described, but then bullied Gollum into showing him the way out. Gollum, since he doesn't the soul-consuming power of the Ring that came about later, cravenly shows Bilbo the back door.

In my fantasy world, I find an original copy of the Hobbit at a jumble sale, and buy it for $1. I don't need a first edition, just the original version.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.

`Are these magic cloaks? ' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.

`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.

NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Jun 25 2009, 3:41pm

Post #63 of 81 (1299 views)
The original Riddles in the Dark [In reply to] Can't Post

side-by-side with the new version can be found here. Maybe that will be useful until your fantasy $1 original edition turns up!


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings

farmer maggot

Jun 25 2009, 3:56pm

Post #64 of 81 (1304 views)
Many thanks,Entmaiden [In reply to] Can't Post

That summary is very interesting and I will have to go back to my Hobbit copy to check the subtlties. I guess original Bilbo just felt entitled to take the ring as part of his prize for winning the game, since losing would have meant being eaten! I also guess this means the finding of the ring cannot, at that stage have had any significance in promoting the conflict between races and ensuing battle of (eventually) five armies.

I am still curious about how this changes our view of Bilbo's character, whether JRR realised and deliberated on this, and how much of the overal actual and political Middle Earth landscape he already had in mind, rather than being post rationalised. I wonder of there are any concrete clues.

It may be some time until I can get to find an Annotated Hobbit. I may ask this question on a separate thread to raise some views on how a 'standalone' Hobbit could so easily become central to the Third Age story.

Guardian of the Galaxy / Moderator

Jun 25 2009, 4:24pm

Post #65 of 81 (1299 views)
The Battle of Five Armies [In reply to] Can't Post

hinged more on the dwarves' treasure and the Arkenstone, not as much the Ring. Bilbo used the Ring to briefly escape from the dwarves, meet with Dain and Thranduil and then return, but he used the Arkenstone as ransom. No one at that point knows he has the Ring, although Gandalf suspects. But even Gandalf at that time has no idea of the Ring's history. He learns that many years later, well after Bilbo returned to the Shire.

Even with the changes made to integrate better with the LOTR story, I don't see that the Ring has much impact on the Hobbit story. The rewrites of The Hobbit were done to link it to the later stories, and I'm glad that Tolkien made the changes without substantially changing The Hobbit story.

See Farfromhome's link also, which has a side-by-side analysis of the changes. It's not a subsitite for the Annotated Hobbit, which is excellent, but it's a good comparison of the two texts.

I think your idea of a separate thread is a great idea, and look forward to you posting it!

Glad you joined in the discussion and hope it happens more often than a few times over 10 years of lurking. Smile

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.

`Are these magic cloaks? ' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.

`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.

NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Jun 25 2009, 4:49pm

Post #66 of 81 (1321 views)
Howdy and Welcome TheNumenorean :D [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry it's taken so long to get here... but I'm glad you've found your way to our boards :D

Personally, I'd been so long just hoping and praying that The Hobbit would be made at all... and THEN that Peter and his filmic family would be the ones to do the work on the adaptation... that I'm focusing on my trust that Jackson will make sure the story is safe and done right. He's the one that has invested over 12 years into getting LotR done and trying to get The Hobbit done, I just can't see that he'd do anything to degrade the story or Tolkien's works. I'm wishing he was doing the directing, but I'm trusting his decision to bring GdT into the play... which I'm more and more comfortable with as time goes on and I see his (GdT's) excitement.

I'm also happy about the expansion of TH into 2 films now that it appears they'll be expanding the subtext of the story. Especially the White Council and maybe even seeing Gollum leaving the mountain. I know that doesn't happen until much later in the story... but they may need to take the luxury of changing that as they did for LotR. It also depends on how long the films are. If they're 2 to 2.5 hrs long, that's a good timeline for telling the story correctly.

This is an exciting time... especially when you consider all the years of waiting and the threat that this may not have happened at all. It's going to be fabulous... and I can't wait to see it, hear what Howard Shore's music will be, and get to return to Middle-earth a la NZ all over again. These are great days, and I feel so lucky to be here at its inception... knowing this, along with LotR, will be treasured classics.

Cheers! And try not to worry. The story's in good hands :)


"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.

TORn's Observations Lists


Jun 25 2009, 5:28pm

Post #67 of 81 (1268 views)
Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

I find myself in agreement with Morthoron regarding adding material to the films. For me the greatest flaws of the LotR films wasn't the omission of certain "minor" characters, but rather the addition of events and characters (most of these unnecessary deviations from the books occurring in The Two Towers revolve around the Helm's Deep and Osgiliath sequences) that were in contradiction to the source material. Now, I loved Peter Jackson's vision of the LotR story, but the fact remains that it was his vision and not Tolkien's that we saw one the screen. To a certain extent, I think viewers will be able to expect much of the same when it comes to The Hobbit. Guillermo is a wonderful director with a great knowledge of folklore and mythological archetypes (see El Laberinto del Fauno for evidence of this) , which will definitely aid him in his adaptation of Tolkien's work, however, we can't expect a direct translation from the literary to cinematic medium. I'm fully confident that Guillermo, Peter, Fran, and Phillipa will all come together and create an amazing film, but what I'm hoping for is an amazing adaptation... not quite the same thing.

As for Guillermo's past films, I must admit that with the exception of El Laberinto del Fauno, he seems an unlikely choice for what is in essence a children's fantasy/adventure film. But then again, so did Peter Jackson when he was announced as the director for LotR. I'm just thankful that he's been so in touch with both fans of the books and the films. I think that keeping an open line of communication here on TORn between the fans and the film makers is absolutely imperative. Who knows, maybe they'll even listen to our opinions and ideas and allow them to impact the final film.

Thanks to everyone for being so outspoken about this and for being welcoming to a new voice here on the site.
I bid all a fond farewell and I shall return...

Thine own will, be thine own fate...


Jun 25 2009, 5:56pm

Post #68 of 81 (1302 views)
ahhhh thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

i've never seen a comparison before. definately interesting to see the changes.

one thing that struck me as curious tho. why would he change the passage out? in the original it was 6 right, 4 left; in the revision its 7 right, 6 left...
i didn't see anything else in there that would indicate the necessity of this change. was it just for the fact that JRRT needed something a bit further on down the tunnel in order for the extended counting sequence to make sense?

N.E. Brigand

Jun 25 2009, 8:15pm

Post #69 of 81 (1301 views)
Bilbo doesn't taunt Gollum. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the revised version of "Riddles in the Dark", Bilbo finds the Ring in complete darkness, and drops it in his pocket without any idea of what exactly it is that he's found. He doesn't know that it belongs to Gollum until after the riddling is complete and Gollum is angrily rushing toward the hobbit from his little island.

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N.E. Brigand

Jun 25 2009, 8:18pm

Post #70 of 81 (1272 views)
Of course, in LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

--the book, I mean-- Aragorn had given Arwen that ring years earlier.

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Jun 25 2009, 10:13pm

Post #71 of 81 (1257 views)
True.... [In reply to] Can't Post

....but it made sense in the context of the film and I'd forgotten the connection (always glad to be reminded of Finrod Smile )

farmer maggot

Jun 26 2009, 8:57am

Post #72 of 81 (1277 views)
Many thanks, FarFromHome [In reply to] Can't Post

That link proved very valuable in highlighting the changes. I am still interested in what they do to adjust our view of Bilbo's character, and whether JRRT had this in mind. For me Bilbo goes from a somewhat weak and opportunistic 'adventurer' (at this stage of the Hobbit) to a much more symapathetic character already controled by the ring but instinctively resisting corrucption - witnessed by his sympathy in not killing or injuring Gollum.

farmer maggot

Jun 26 2009, 9:14am

Post #73 of 81 (1266 views)
The one obvious power of the ring, [In reply to] Can't Post

to provide invisibility, is the only thing that allows Bilbo to complete most of the rest of the Hobbit quest and story. My thought was whether the ring affected any of his later actions in ways designed to keep the Elves, Dwarves and Men in suspicion and confrontation. But I guess it would just have been easier to make sure to be found by a Goblin, in which case it would go straight to Sauron and we have no Hobbit or LOTR stories!

Thanks for you commentary on this. By the way I completely agree with your comments about connections, linkages and reminders in both the book and films. That incredibly well developed and concieved web of connected and mutually supporting threads makes that world feel real and concrete.

I will post the thread about JRRT's Hobbit revisions and writing process when I can, I think it could help draw out aspects of the Hobbit/LOTR relationship. And I will certainly try to comment more on these TORN boards, provided I have something valuable to say!

farmer maggot

Jun 26 2009, 9:27am

Post #74 of 81 (1239 views)
I stand corrected N.E.B, thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

as I realised when I could actually check my faulty memory with the side-by-side comparison of versions on the link FarFromHome provided.

I guess in the original version Bilbo concluded that he had already won the ring anyway in the riddle game, even thought strictly he cheated by not asking a true riddle on his final turn. In the revised version he never thinks of placating the situation by giving the ring back to its previous owner! I presume that is due to the power it already holds over him. We should be thankful for that since an invisible Gollum would polish Bilbo off in no time at all!

We would be back to square one and minus one hobbit! And Smaug would still be rampaging even now!


Jun 26 2009, 1:32pm

Post #75 of 81 (1253 views)
I hope you do post the thread, Farmer Maggot, [In reply to] Can't Post

... and I hope I find it when you do. I knew Tolkien had revised the text of The Hobbit but had never tried to find out what it said originally, and the changes are interesting. It intrigues me particularly that the original includes the comment on Bilbo's finding the ring. 'It was a turning point in his career, but he did not know it.' I think it's interesting that Tolkien gave so much importance at that stage to something that was barely more than a plot device - a means to escape the goblins and, if he had planned the text so far ahead, to help Bilbo fulfil his role as burglar.

But I'm wondering if he did have a sense that this was something greater, even then, though he hadn't defined what it was. I curse myself for not looking into this more deeply before and for having no time now, but in a letter quoted in the History of Middle Earth he talks about his mythology being in coherent form before 'The Hobbit' was written and 'The Hobbit' starting out as a simple children's tale and being drawn closer to the mythology, and the ring being key to this.

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