|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RosieLass
Valinor
Apr 17 2007, 9:07pm
Post #76 of 152
(465 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The number of deaths is irrelevant.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
People spout about lunatics with guns being somehow "worse" because they can kill more people. But one death by a knife or a stick any other non-firearm is still one death too many.
All of this furor over weapons is ignoring the root of the problem, which is what possesses people to need to kill in the first place.
Until you can state that your country has solved that problem, your country has no claim of moral superiority over mine.
This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.
--Eeyore
http://mallika.vox.com/
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 17 2007, 9:17pm
Post #78 of 152
(417 views)
Shortcut
|
|
But alcohol has been a staple of human existence
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
for millennia. I know that doesn't necessarily make it safe, but it shows we can coexist successfully with it. Whereas cars are destroying the planet, and they've only been around for 100 years. There are times when I think the ents had it exactly right!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
Altaira
Superuser
Apr 17 2007, 9:26pm
Post #79 of 152
(425 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Blanket comment: editing of comments about the value of others' comments is imminent {nt}
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"All we have to decide is what to do with the boards that are given to us"
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 17 2007, 9:27pm
Post #80 of 152
(441 views)
Shortcut
|
..."if you look at it a certain perverse way". I do work with inner city kids as well as gang members, and they do tell me they believe the gangs provide them with protection. (Yes, if only from the gang itself.) True, there is money and power as well, but, chillingly, they view themselves as the good guys. And virtually all of them, gang and non-gang, firmly believe the police are out to get them.
I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 17 2007, 9:32pm
Post #81 of 152
(409 views)
Shortcut
|
...as far as cars are concerned we'll eventually either run out of oil or else finally get some common sense. But there will alwyas be alcohol. And i've seen it ruin more lives than i care to think.
I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
|
|
|
Pukel-man
The Shire
Apr 17 2007, 9:38pm
Post #82 of 152
(458 views)
Shortcut
|
|
One of the unwritten laws of American politics . . .
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
. . . is that you aren't allowed to solve any problem through comparison with another country. That would imply that America is not the most free and moral society in the world, which is unpatriotic.
One simply cannot say 'Look at these fifty countries with stricter gun laws and miniscule gun crime' and cite them as evidence. America is different. America is special. Americans don't need this kind of thing - they're better, they work harder, they're more pious. In America it's okay to repudiate empirical evidence with half-baked theory, because all empirical evidence is invalid unless it involves America or Americans.
It boggles my mind that an American can look at a graph showing perfect correlation between gun murder and gun ownership across a range of societies and cultures, yet still believe guns make him safer. It boggles my mind that any American can point to their ickle snub-nosed handgun as the only thing standing between freedom and government tyranny, even as they watch their tax money poured into massive armed forces and multi-million dollar military vehicles.
But politics in the US always has been a sort of faith rather than a science, and that's not going to change any time soon.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 17 2007, 9:43pm
Post #83 of 152
(454 views)
Shortcut
|
that moral superiority isn't at issue here. Every country has criminals, every country has racism, and hate crime, and senseless, tragic killings. But America has more gun-deaths than other countries, probably just because America has more guns. I suspect that very few of the people who end up using a gun to kill someone actually imagined that they would ever do so, any more than anyone expects they will ever kill someone with their car. But cars and guns are dangerous, and the more of them there are around, the more of them will cause damage, just through sheer force of the laws of probability. It's not about morality at all.
Several people have mentioned, though, that they feel American society is very fractured, and that this may also be causing more violence to happen, which in turn makes people want to have a gun for self-protection. I don't know enough about that to comment, but I think it's a different issue. Still, it does make me realize just what a difficult question gun control is, and I've learned a lot from all the different viewpoints that have come across in this thread. What's so great about TORn, for me, is that everyone seems to have managed to get their points across (some of them clearly very deeply held) in a way that actually leads to a bit more enlightenment, rather than the mindless confrontation that mostly seems to go on in the media.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 17 2007, 9:59pm
Post #84 of 152
(415 views)
Shortcut
|
While I agree with your general point that the underlying problems that lead to murder needs to be solved, eliminating the opportunity for mass murder doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I think 33 deaths are worse than one death, and if the killer had only a knife or a stick he almost certainly couldn't have killed 33 people before being overcome. I expect everyone here would concede the general point: is anyone going to defend the right of members of the public to possess nerve gas or nuclear bombs? It's a mater of assigning the appropriate amount of regulation to weapons which are differently dangerous.
Sure, it won't be perfect. But that's true of all laws.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Tolkien Illustrated! Jan. 29-May 20: Visit the Reading Room to discuss art by John Howe, Alan Lee, Ted Nasmith and others, including Tolkien himself.
Apr. 16-22: Tolkien's patterns, devices and calligraphy.
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 17 2007, 10:01pm
Post #85 of 152
(429 views)
Shortcut
|
which in turn makes people want to have a gun for self-protection.
The thing is most people aren't going to be able to use a firearm very well, especially in the dark in the middle of the night after just being woke up by a strange noise. And a loaded gun just lying around in the bedroom is a very bad thing. So the best protection IMHO is a starter pistol, preferably a .38. Starter pistols have plugged barrels so no way they can shoot real bullets. But the blanks, especially .38s, make a really big noise and a very bright flash, and any burglar is going to be scared spitless and run away. But if he does manage to get his hands on it first you can run and get a good head start as he's shooting blanks at you.
I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
|
|
|
RosieLass
Valinor
Apr 17 2007, 10:05pm
Post #86 of 152
(405 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It is a moral issue in the sense that...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...I'm beginning to hear echoes of "my country is superior to yours because we don't allow guns," and that's all I'm complaining about.
You're right. Most people have been able to express their points of view in reasonable and thoughtful ways, and I have learned a few things in reading this thread myself.
It's just when someone whips out an "easy" solution (BAN GUNS!!!1!ELEVEN!!) or starts disparaging another country's laws and values--as if their own was perfect--or makes offensive insinuations that Americans think we're so superior and are only getting what we deserve, that I start getting my nose out of joint.
As many in this thread (myself included) have tried to say, if you take away everyone's guns, you still have the same number of angry, violent people with murderous compulsions, and that hasn't really solved the problem.
This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.
--Eeyore
http://mallika.vox.com/
|
|
|
RosieLass
Valinor
Apr 17 2007, 10:08pm
Post #87 of 152
(406 views)
Shortcut
|
It's the "let's deal with the underlying problem and stop focusing exclusively on the symptoms" part of the argument that I'm trying to emphasize.
Too many people think that dealing with guns will end the problem, and that they can stop worrying about it when that happens, and it's simply not true.
This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.
--Eeyore
http://mallika.vox.com/
|
|
|
'esquey
The Shire
Apr 17 2007, 10:10pm
Post #88 of 152
(428 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The number of deaths is irrelevant?!?!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Yes the death of one is horrible, but there is no way you can convince me that multiplying that number by 30 is irrelevant. The magnitude of that number is why it's being called a massacre.
And if Cho Seung-Hui had been armed with a knife the damage he would have inflicted would have been much less, and many more kids would have walked out of that classroom unharmed.
Yes, the deeper problem is wondering why people kill--but before we get into the psyche of all the demented people in the world, shouldn't the U.S. as a country do all they can to make sure weapons that can kill innocent people should not be legally allowed to be owned by these people?
I'm going to share with you a graph presented to me by a friend:
The HH stands for "House Holds". Link
The number of gun deaths increases exponentially with the number of households with guns. Can't say much more than that.
And by the way, my county? I was born, bred, and continue to live in the United States.
*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*
|
|
|
houndrock
The Shire
Apr 17 2007, 10:12pm
Post #89 of 152
(403 views)
Shortcut
|
I doubt that the number of deaths is irrelevant to the families who lost their children / brothers / sisters yesterday.
For another, it would be hard for 'esquey to claim moral superiority for her country over the U.S. inasmuch as she *lives* in the U.S. and it's her country too.
(This post was edited by Altaira on Apr 18 2007, 2:52pm)
|
|
|
'esquey
The Shire
Apr 17 2007, 10:21pm
Post #90 of 152
(427 views)
Shortcut
|
|
In response to your comment about the killer rampaging without a gun
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
not their guns. Guns are inanimate objects. The point was that there was not a proper response to the situation. If there had been, it's more likely that the *police* would have used their guns to stop they killer.
Also, that the killer wouldn't have gone on a rampage without a gun is pure conjecture. He could have just as easily walked around stabbing people, or driven around in his car and run over people. Crazy people do crazy things. If he hadn't had access to a gun, it is possible, and likely, that he would have chosen another way to kill people.
Yes, the killer would have killed with or without a gun, but what of the death count? Do you really think he would have killed 30 people if he had a knife in his hand? Or if he had run over people one by one? Having to approach an individual in their face with a knife or bulky car would have killed so many less.
Guns are the tool of cowards, and those that support them are blind to this.
*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*
|
|
|
Magpie
Immortal
Apr 17 2007, 10:21pm
Post #91 of 152
(421 views)
Shortcut
|
first, because knowing you have some direct knowledge means you don't have some odd romantic or paranoid notion about either gangs or police.
next, because I missed the 'certain perverse way'. (That will teach me to open up a thread I know I will have emotional reactions about)
I worked in an inner city school and I was devoted to those kids. And I grew up in a situation not as depressed and oppressed... but my family was about the only one not on welfare in my neighborhood and school chums weren't allowed sleepovers because other parents thought it was unsafe. So, I don't take well to people having romantic notions about things when they have no clue what it means to live that life.
A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.
|
|
|
RosieLass
Valinor
Apr 17 2007, 10:29pm
Post #92 of 152
(449 views)
Shortcut
|
I was confused by her comment that at least she could say that her government didn't give the killer the right to carry his gun that he killed people with.
However, I stand by my assertion that any number of violent deaths, by whatever means, is wrong and should be of equal concern to all law-abiding citizens.
This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.
--Eeyore
http://mallika.vox.com/
|
|
|
'esquey
The Shire
Apr 17 2007, 10:30pm
Post #93 of 152
(471 views)
Shortcut
|
But at least I can rest assured that my government didn't give a mad man the constitutional right to bear arms and kill 30 innocent college students.
And if every one of those students was armed with a gun, do you really think it would have resulted in a lower death count? If anything, it may have increased it in the chaos.
I realize now that you misread this post and inferred that I lived in another country. When I said "at least I can rest assured that my gov't didn't give a mad man the constitutional right to bear arms and kill 30 innocent college students"...I said that with regards to the hypothetical situation of the U.S. banning guns.
If they were to do so--I would rest easy knowing my government did nothing to legally help the killer arm himself.
*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*
|
|
|
Aerin
Grey Havens
Apr 17 2007, 11:06pm
Post #94 of 152
(405 views)
Shortcut
|
It used to be "VPI," but the university now uses "VT." (That's how the name is abbreviated in documents I've edited for the university.)
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 17 2007, 11:08pm
Post #95 of 152
(401 views)
Shortcut
|
I worked in an inner city school and I was devoted to those kids.
Thanks. I went to high school in South Oak Cliff in Dallas, which wasn't a very nice place. I'll always be grateful to those teachers who cared.
I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 17 2007, 11:20pm
Post #96 of 152
(390 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Guns make it easier to kill people.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Would you concede that point?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tolkien Illustrated! Jan. 29-May 20: Visit the Reading Room to discuss art by John Howe, Alan Lee, Ted Nasmith and others, including Tolkien himself.
Apr. 16-22: Tolkien's patterns, devices and calligraphy.
|
|
|
Aerin
Grey Havens
Apr 17 2007, 11:28pm
Post #97 of 152
(410 views)
Shortcut
|
However, the 2nd Amendment is no only intended for militias. That is a recent interpretation come up with by gun control advocates.
In fact, the idea that this is a "recent interpretation" is spin propagated by opponents of gun control. Back in 1939, the Supreme Court ruled that the "obvious purpose" of the Second Amendment was to "assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness" of the state militias. This (rather obvious!) interpretation is supported by historical analyses of the history of the amendment and its wording, not to mention the history of militias and their role.
|
|
|
Aerin
Grey Havens
Apr 17 2007, 11:37pm
Post #98 of 152
(412 views)
Shortcut
|
whether any of the victims were among the several VT Engineering faculty members with whom I am working on a federal grant proposal (due in a couple of weeks). The one VT contact I've heard from said, when I asked if everyone was all right, that he couldn't tell me anything yet "out of respect for family members." I decided it would not be appropriate for me to start phoning or e-mailing people to find out if they were all right, so I'm just holding my breath until my contact is able to give me more information, or until others get in touch. All I know is that the project is going forward, as I was asked to provide an update on the status of each proposal section. So I guess that is reassuring.
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 17 2007, 11:51pm
Post #99 of 152
(410 views)
Shortcut
|
Firearms are very noisy and with that first shot you've kind of warned everybody in the neighborhood what's going on. Kniives can be very effective in mass murder. Look up the term "running amuck": A lot more than 33 people have been killed at a time that way. People can kill lots more people *without* using guns. Julio Gonzalez killed 87 people with just a dollar's worth of gasoline. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 with fertilizer, and the 9/11 hijackers killed 2973 with 4 planes full of jet fuel. No guns.
I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 17 2007, 11:57pm
Post #100 of 152
(394 views)
Shortcut
|
That is indeed considerate. I'll join you in praying for their safety.
I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
|
|
|
|
|
