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Interim Post (;D): Wiki-pedia--thoughts on the Witch-King.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 25, 9:17pm

Post #151 of 203 (7699 views)
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Touché. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 26, 2:39pm

Post #152 of 203 (7546 views)
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Why 'The Witch King' at all, indeed? [In reply to] Can't Post

The WK is a bit witchy I suppose - he's one of the few characters in LOTR to use magic quite overtly. But anyone expecting the Nazgul to ride broomsticks or brew porions in couldrons, or keep cats or taods as pets, other witchy tropes: they are going to be disappointed.
Maybe it just sounded good & look no further?

Or maybe we have The Witch King in opposition ot the other main magic users, the Wizards?

Or maybe other forum members have better ideas?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 26, 4:29pm

Post #153 of 203 (7535 views)
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Withcraft [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The WK is a bit witchy I suppose - he's one of the few characters in LOTR to use magic quite overtly. But anyone expecting the Nazgul to ride broomsticks or brew porions in couldrons, or keep cats or taods as pets, other witchy tropes: they are going to be disappointed.
Maybe it just sounded good & look no further?

Or maybe we have The Witch King in opposition ot the other main magic users, the Wizards?

Or maybe other forum members have better ideas?

It was the Witch-king who summoned the Wights to inhabit the tombs of the Barrow-downs. Is that witchy enough?

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


Felagund
Nargothrond


Feb 26, 11:11pm

Post #154 of 203 (7501 views)
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great question! [In reply to] Can't Post

And I don't have an answer! I've done a fair bit of scouring since you posted this and have, so far, turned up not much at all. Thought I'd share this 'not much' with you though :)

For the majority of the drafts of LotR, our Witch-king is referred to as the 'Wizard-king' and, less frequently, the 'Sorcerer-king'. The term 'Witch-king' doesn't appear at all, as far as I can make out, until you get to the drafts of the Appendices, where he is referred to as the Witch-king, the Black Captain the Lord of the Ringwraiths or the Sorcerer-king. 'Wizard-king' disappears from use.

An interesting distinction can perhaps be made when 'Witch-king' is used in the draft Appendices. It appears to be specifically associated with the Angmar period of this particular villain's career. Or to give that place its eventual full title, as per the standard published map of Middle-earth: 'the Witch-realm of Angmar'. Thus we have:


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The chief of these, the wielders of the Nine Rings, becomes the Witch-king of the realm of Angmar... ['The Tale of Years of the Third Age', HoMe XII]


And:


Quote
But it was found later [after the fall of Angmar] that the Witch-king had fled away secretly southwards, and had entered Minas Ithil (now called Minas Morgul) and become Lord of the Ringwraiths. [The Heirs of Elendil', HoMe XII]


This associative naming makes it into the final version of Appendix A. But in the final version of the main body of LotR, Tolkien also refers to the Lord of the Nazgûl as the Witch-king in multiple contexts. In trying to make sense of this, the 'Witch-king' appears to enter into usage specific to Angmar but thereafter remains in use to refer to the Lord of the Nazgûl, even following the collapse of Angmar as a 'Witch-realm'.

As to why 'Wizard-king' gets abandoned, despite being the primary name for much of the drafting process, I reckon you've already hit on that. The term 'Wizard' becomes exclusively associated with Gandalf and his order. Having a key villain continuing to be called the Wizard-king would only confuse matters - although Tolkien did play with the idea of the Wizard-king being "a renegade of his [Gandalf's] own order" ('The Siege of Gondor', HoMe VIII).

As to why Tolkien alighted on 'witch' as his main name-stem, this probably goes back to the fact that our author was a linguist and one who appears to have delighted in reintroducing or repurposing the archaic roots of English. I'm going to assume that he knew full-well that in his lifetime, the term 'witch' would have been largely associated in popular culture with female practitioners of dark magic. However, the etymology of the word allows for both male and female witches (Old English: wicca & wicce respectively). 'Witch-king' was therefore totally legit, linguistically. And perhaps gave Tolkien a little thrill as he confounded readers with his etymological correctness! In the same vein, there's his attraction to using 'dwarrows' as the plural of 'dwarf', even though he didn't give into temptation on that one (Letters 17 & 25), apart from the lone reference to Dwarrowdelf, the Westron name for Moria.

Edit / postscript: I probably should have just gone straight to Hammond & Scull (The Lord of the Rings, A Readers Companion), as they set out much more eloquently the etymology of witch, in the context of the Witch-king!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk

(This post was edited by Felagund on Feb 26, 11:22pm)


squire
Gondolin


Feb 27, 1:28am

Post #155 of 203 (7498 views)
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Thanks for that research! [In reply to] Can't Post

I admit I thought about a little HoME-dive in response to NoWiz's question, but it seemed kind of daunting. And then you did it!

I love the idea of Tolkien clinging to and playing with the origins of 'witch' as including both men and women. But I also never gave the phrase "Witch-King" a second thought in all the years I've been reading and re-reading LotR. The meaning is clear and obvious - no one thinks "Witch = female but this one is referred to as 'he'! What's up with that??" Tolkien pulls another one off.


squire online:
Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.

= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 27, 4:47am

Post #156 of 203 (7460 views)
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Which-king? [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that we're scrutinizing (and boggling) every word, I'm glad Tolkien abandoned Wizard-king, which seems a mouthful. And while I'm no witch expert, I'm a bit surprised that "witch" was deemed almost exclusively for women, since it's always stuck in my mind that the Salem witch trials killed men as well as women under the umbrella term "witch," and that happened also in witch-hunts in Europe.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 27, 12:00pm

Post #157 of 203 (7421 views)
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oooh, actually... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all that great stuff! In response to squire and CuriousG I was wondering how witches had popularly become female by trope, and that may have led me to something further.


Aside from keeping the WK distinct from the wizards, I think we might have words that are historically associated with two types of magic (witch versus wizard, from wise-ard):



Quote
[Concerning an apparent shift in attitudes towards magic in the 15th Century, from scepticism to fear to a persecution.] One explanation offered by historian Michael D. Bailey is that at some point during the 14th and 15th centuries, religious officials perhaps unwittingly conflated two distinct traditions: “learned” magic and “common” magic. The common kind of magic required no formal training, was widely known, could be practised by both men and women, and was usually associated with love, sex and healing.
By contrast, learned magic came to Europe from the east and featured in the “magic manuals” that circulated among educated men whom Richard Kieckhefer described as members of a “clerical underworld”.
...
While men also feature in the infamous 15th century witch-hunting manual Malleus Maleficarum (The Hammer of the Witches), the work has long been recognised as deeply misogynistic. It suggests that women’s perceived lack of intelligence made them submissive to demons. One section reads:

Just as through the first defect in their [women’s] intelligence they are more prone to abjure the faith; so through their second defect of inordinate passions … they inflict various vengeances through witchcraft. Wherefore it is no wonder that so great a number of witches exist in this sex.

By the end of the Middle Ages, a view of women as especially susceptible to witchcraft had emerged.
...
The idea that women might have been dabbling with the demonic magic previously associated with educated males, however inaccurate it may have been, was frightening. Neither men nor women were allowed to engage with demons, but while men stood a chance at resisting demonic control because of their education, women did not.
Their perceived lack of intelligence, together with contemporary notions regarding their “passions”, meant that they were understood as more likely to make pacts of “fidelity to devils” whom they could not control – so, in the eyes of the medieval church, women were more easily disposed to witchcraft than men.


The evolution of the medieval witch – and why she’s usually a woman

by Dr J Farrell, Lecturer in Medieval History, University of Exeter


Now of course witches aren't the only scary folklore creatures or monsters that are female by trope. There is of course a considerable literature on why that might be! Here's a starter review.

And most likely marginal and fairly powerless figures in society were easier to accuse of witchcraft if they displeased someone in some more powerful. By contrast Rudolf II was a notorious fan of astrology and alchemy. Gonna call him a witch? Well he's Holy Roman Emperor (1576–1612), King of Hungary and Croatia (as Rudolf I, 1572–1608), King of Bohemia (1575–1608/1611) and Archduke of Austria (1576–1608). You'll need an army to make that stick, and would probably only do that for realpolitik reasons. I beleive the Pope restricted himself to cautioning Rudolf about a coin on which Ruldolf appears in alchemist's garb.

Now we should hold our horses (demonic or otherwise) a little here. I'm not suggesting that because all this folklore exists, we can assume Tolkien was basing his work upon it. Ourside the writing of fan-fiction one should not import stuff willy-nilly or wholesale into Middle-earth and expect to have discovered something valuable. Indeed, not only do we have the Witch King as a against-trope male witch (if he is that) but the person who might most easily find themselves in trouble with any passing Witchfinder General is Galadriel. And where witchy associations are ascribed to her (rumours have reached Rohan) they are quickly derided as ignorance.


Nevertheless, it could be that readers' associations from history help "witch king" rather than "Wizard king" along as a sensible name for our chief Black Rider.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 27, 12:08pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 27, 12:07pm

Post #158 of 203 (7417 views)
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Oh, and what is magic anyway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably an unanswerable question within Middle-earth! But thinking about witches vs. wizards, I was reminded of this, from Anita Mason's superb novel The Illusionist. She describes attitudes to magic in 1st Century AD Judea. It sets up the world in which her main character (and indeed Biblical character) , the magician Simon Magus, operates:

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“Magic was prohibited in those days, on the assumption that it worked...

[But] not all magic was illegal. It was an open-minded age, and a thing was judged largely on its intended effects. A spell to cast harm on a neighbour was punishable; a spell to take away toothache was not. If it had been, many doctors would have been seriously inconvenienced.

Magic was part of the fabric of life, and a great deal of it was not recognized as magic at all. It shaded imperceptibly into religion on the one hand and science on the other - inevitably, since it had begotten them. It was practised by a strange assortment of people...Since the small fry of the magical world were limited by their capacities to catering for the baser needs of human nature - a love potion, as curse, a spell to make a woman tell the truth - while those of greater aptitude could afford to use their gifts benignly, the shadowy distinction between permitted and forbidden magic tended regrettably to resolve itself into a class distinction, in which the artisans were nearly always on the wrong side of the law and the great masters were above it. ...

Since white magic was believed to be performed by gods and black or illegal magic by demons, this sort of assertion brought the argument about legality into an area where it could not be settled. For the supernatural agents who performed the magician's will did not normally identify themselves to the beholders. Thus a celebrated exorcist was several times accused of casting out devils by the power of Beelzebub. ...

Thus between legal and illegal, black and white, god and demon, the boundaries were hopelessly confused. Most people did not bother about this confusion: it did not appear to them to be a problem. To the magician, as to the prostitute, the occasional severity of the law was an occupational hazard. To Simon Magus, who saw very clearly that one man's harm is another man's blessing, and who operated in a world of forces where there is no good and evil but only power, the illogicalities of the law were the predictable outcome of a system in which men of little imagination made rules for their betters.

One idea which does not seem to have occurred to the lawmakers of the time was that magic should be anyone's property. It was simply there, as the air was there. The principle that the same act, performed with the same intent, should be licit or illicit depending on the identity of the magician, would have been found incomprehensible. It would, of course, have simplified the situation at a stroke. Perhaps they did not take magic very seriously in those days.”


The last sentence, with its tone of irony, leads on to the idea that the Church made exactly that change early in the era of Christianity as a mass religion: performing magic would get you into trouble, but to perform an act with the same consequences by miracle would not.

And (relevant to wizards vs witches) Mason's "the shadowy distinction between permitted and forbidden magic tended regrettably to resolve itself into a class distinction, in which the artisans were nearly always on the wrong side of the law and the great masters were above it."
(BTW, I've used that Mason quote before, if it looks a bit famiiliar, for example in this discussion about magic (or not) and Galadriel's mirror

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 27, 12:14pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 27, 12:10pm

Post #159 of 203 (7414 views)
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But.... [In reply to] Can't Post

But... which kingdom was the Witch Kingdom?
Nah, I know, it was Angband, located near modern Witchita, probably.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 27, 12:31pm

Post #160 of 203 (7411 views)
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"Oh, and" #2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Granny Weatherwax has been in touch to point out that this witch/ wizard distinction is very much there but subverted in the works of Sir Terry Pratchett, who was a British fantasy author character Granny created.

In the Discworld novels, the Wizards are a parody of university academics: frightfully lever, but a bit otherworldly and very much given to departmental politics (including by murder) . Their title is said to be derived from the archaic word "Wys-ars", meaning one who, at bottom, is very wise [1].

The witches are a more practical lot, Granny says.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Felagund
Nargothrond


Feb 28, 6:50pm

Post #161 of 203 (7130 views)
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Witch-king nomenclature or what's in a name: what he does; what he is [In reply to] Can't Post

Some thoughts...

Wizard-king: I do magic; I'm a boss.

Sorceror-king: I do magic; I'm a boss.

Witch-king of Angmar: I do magic; I'm the boss of Angmar.

Witch-king: I do magic; if you ask me how I lost Angmar, so help me Morgoth I'll Black Breath you!

Black Captain: I'm the boss of the Nazgûl and my Master's armies; I do wars. I also like wearing black.

Lord of the Nazgûl / Ringwraiths / Nine: I'm the boss of these other undead guys.

Wraith-lord / Wraith-king: I'm undead; and a boss.

Morgul-king: I lost Angmar but that's okay coz now I'm the boss of Minas Morgul. And I'm totally cool with that. All the time.

the haggard king: rude! Would love to see how you look after 4 millennia of unlife. Also, I used to tour with Iggy Pop and Keith Richards.

Lord of carrion: also rude. Anyway, don't knock it until you try it.

Dwimmerlaik: er, what primitive gibberish is this guy from Rohan saying? Oh sh*t, he's a she...!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 28, 7:31pm

Post #162 of 203 (7091 views)
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Ah yes, I unerstand it now :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 28, 9:13pm

Post #163 of 203 (7063 views)
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Would I be right in thinking... [In reply to] Can't Post

Would I be right in thinking that being The Black Captain would only be 9/15 = 3/5 as good as being The All Black Captain?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Felagund
Nargothrond


Feb 28, 9:26pm

Post #164 of 203 (7032 views)
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Hahaha! [In reply to] Can't Post

As an Australian, I feel that the polite answer is "I couldn't possibly comment."

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Morthoron
Hithlum


Mar 1, 4:00am

Post #165 of 203 (6825 views)
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Interestingly enough... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It was the Witch-king who summoned the Wights to inhabit the tombs of the Barrow-downs. Is that witchy enough?


The Proto-Germanic wikkjaz is cognate to "necromancer" (one who wakes the dead). So our Oxfordian philologist most certainly dug in the roots to link the Wights to the WiKi.





dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 1, 2:42pm

Post #166 of 203 (6764 views)
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Ah, yes, the famous last thoughts. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Mar 1, 4:24pm

Post #167 of 203 (6761 views)
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Ah! Thank you. He must have had [In reply to] Can't Post

an enormous amount of pleasure digging all that up.

Wonder what the proto-Indo-European is?



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 1, 4:25pm)


Morthoron
Hithlum


Mar 1, 4:45pm

Post #168 of 203 (6759 views)
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Being a Certified Half-assed Interwebz Philologist (CHIP)... [In reply to] Can't Post

Proto-Indo-European root *weyk- , "which is thought to have a general meaning related to 'to bend, to weave, to be active'." Intriguing how the continued definers for the modern "witch" refer back to conjuring, and even the oldest precedents indicate a spiritual weaving or bending, and the other undercurrent of being "strong", "lively", "active", as it relates to the expending of energy in order to do this weaving and bending, and an arcane knowledge or wisdom to do the task:

weik/weyk
OE: wican (to bend) from which MdE weak, wicker and witch elm
OS: wican - wikan,
OHG: wichan, wicken (to bend)
ON: vikja (bend) vika (to fold)

weid/wid
L: video videre (to see); saga (female witch)> MdE Sage Sagacious
G: wissen (to know); witken (to exercise ones knowledge)
E: wit (knowledge); witan (to know) witega (seer magician, prophet, sorcerer)
ON:, vitugr, vitka, vekka (vekke) (wise one)

wikke
[wikke pertains to magic and sorcery only.]
MG: wikken (to predict) OHG: wicken (to work magic) wikkerie(witchery)
LS: wiken, wicken. wigelen and wichelen (conjuring; soothsaying) ; wikker, wichler (fortune-telling) ; wikkerske (witch) ; wichelie (sorcery)
OE: wicca(m.), wicce (f.)(witch); wiccian (to work sorcery, bewitch) wicce-craeft (witchcraft) ME: witche and MdE: witch





(This post was edited by Morthoron on Mar 1, 4:51pm)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Mar 1, 5:35pm

Post #169 of 203 (6744 views)
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Thanks! I love this stuff. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Strong", "lively", "active", and therefor the Yorkshire "wick" meaning (I think) "alive."

Is "LS" late Saxon? Got the others.




(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 1, 5:36pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Mar 1, 7:10pm

Post #170 of 203 (6727 views)
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Oh, that's interesting! [In reply to] Can't Post

Do we get "wicked" as a relation to all those earlier words -- perhaps from stuff wot those wiccans (allegedly) do? Slander as regards the Wiccans I've met, of course. Smile

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Mar 1, 7:24pm

Post #171 of 203 (6723 views)
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I thought black was a slimming color. Those All Blacks look kinda big. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Felagund
Nargothrond


Mar 2, 9:23am

Post #172 of 203 (6621 views)
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wicca / wicked [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe so but Morthoron is better placed to confirm, I reckon!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


noWizardme
Gondolin


Mar 2, 2:19pm

Post #173 of 203 (6597 views)
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Yes indeed. They could manage an impressive "flying tackle hug", you'd have thought. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Felagund
Nargothrond


Mar 2, 10:05pm

Post #174 of 203 (6549 views)
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good magic; bad magic - practitioner nomenclature [In reply to] Can't Post

Reading this excerpt from Mason and your previous post citing Farrell reminded me that there's something of a distinction in Middle-earth between types of 'magic - or exercising of 'power', if that fits better. I don't have electronic copies of any of Tolkien's text, so haven't done anything as methodical as a word search. Apologies if I've skipped over any references that might illustrate things to the contrary and/or better!

Tolkien elaborated on 'magic' in his secondary world relatively sparely and some of the best discussion took place in his correspondence, notably (but not exclusively) in Letters 131 and 155. A distinction is drawn between magic that is used "sparingly" for "specific beneficent purposes" versus that which is used to "terrify and subjugate" (Letter 155); magic that is for the purposes of "Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous reforming of Creation" (Letter 131). The magic used by or associated with the Elves and Gandalf falls on the 'good' side of the ledger and the magic used by Dark Lords and their adherents is associated with 'machinery', in the sense of it being used to "bulldoze both people and things". Motive is at the heart of things.

Turning then to the nomenclature of 'magic-users' and their motives in this secondary world, the Witch-king is part of this divide. First to 'wizards' though: wizards and wizardry appear to be generally associated with forces for good, even if one of the main wizards turns traitor and another is, er best known for being accidentally helpful and portrayed by the author as on the spectrum of failure. The 'order' of wizards itself, in origin and purpose, is to promote resistance to evil in Middle-earth. Tolkien also marks out the use of the word 'wizard' as fundamentally distinct, in the sense that they were 'angelic' in nature - Maiar in emissary form:


Quote
Their name, as related to Wise, is an Englishing of their Elvish name, and is used throughout as utterly distinct from Sorcerer or Magician. [Letter 131]



Quote
There are no precise opposites to the Wizards - a translation (perhaps not suitable but throughout distinguished from other 'magician' terms)... [Letter 144]


This association becomes clearer cut after Tolkien abandoned his use of 'Wizard-king' to describe the character who becomes known as the Witch-king. I note that there are inevitably exceptions to my interpretation of Tolkien's 'rule'. For example, Sauron's dual with Huan features the line "no wizardry or spell [of Sauron's]... could overthrow Huan of Valinor" ('Of Beren & Lúthien', The Sil).

Although The Hobbit is a difficult comparator, in the sense that it significantly pre-dates any nuance Tolkien may have been seeking to establish in his much larger version of his secondary world, I'll pull out for reference the following to help further illustrate the distinctions in play:


Quote
It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood. ['The Last Stage']


There is a contrast between 'white wizards' and 'good magic' on the one hand, and on the other an entity whose very title reeks of 'evil magic' - necromancy. With his base a 'dark hold', no less. Necromancy is explicitly described as transgressive in 'Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar' (HoMe X), in the context of those who dabble in the world of Unbodied spirits:


Quote
To attempt to master them [Unbodied spirits] and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.


Necromancy seems pretty clear cut, in terms of the allegiance and motives of those who use it. Although not explicitly called a necromancer to the best of my knowledge, the Witch-king effectively operates as one, as the mastermind behind the infestation of Tyrn Gorthad with "evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur" (Appendix A, LotR); and again, when he "roused" the Barrow-wights during his hunt for 'Baggins', centuries later ('The Hunt for the Ring', Unfinished Tales). The 'witch' prefix of this character's name-title is, by extension, associated with the practise of evil magic. A 'Witch-realm', as Angmar is described, is similarly a place of evil.

'Sorcery' in Middle-earth has similar connotations. The Witch-king is described as the 'Sorcerer-king' and his post-Angmar abode is Minas Morgul, literally 'Tower of (Black) Sorcery'. And just in case we missed the not so subtle hint: his Master's former headquarters (the "dark hold" mentioned in The Hobbit), Dol Guldur is the 'Hill of Sorcery'. The practice of sorcery is also associated with the fall into corruption of at least some of the nine men ensnared by Sauron, with his 'gifting' of Nine Rings of Power:


Quote
Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old.


Other mentions of sorcery that did not make the final version of the Appendices of LotR are worth citing, in the context of the Witch-king's long campaign out of Angmar to destroy the Dúnedain of the North:


Quote
In Rhudaur an evil folk, workers of sorcery, subjects of Angmar slay the remnants of the Dúnedain and build dark forts in the hills. ['The Heirs of Elendil', HoMe XII]



Quote
...but in Rhudaur for long there dwelt an evil people out of the North, much given to sorcery. ['The Tale of Years of the Third Age', HoMe XII]


And 'sorcery' is also used as a pejorative for 'magic' that is misunderstood as evil. The main reference in this regard is in the context of how the Rohirrim view Lórien and Galadriel [Éomer, replying to Aragorn]:


Quote
'Few escape her [the "Lady in the Golden Wood's"] nets, they say. These are strange days! But if you have her favour, then you also are net-weavers and sorcerers, maybe.' ['The Riders of Rohan', LotR]


To drive the message home, the Rohirric name for Lórien is 'Dwimordene', literally 'Vale of Illusion', with the stem -dwim also used in other words to describe malign and supernatural entities or places, notably Dwimmerlaik (fittingly used by Éowyn to describe the Witch-king: 'work of necromancy' or 'spectre') and Dwimorberg ('Haunted Mountain'). Nothing good is meant in these usages!

To round out the catalogue of magic-user nomenclature in Middle-earth, Tolkien occasionally uses the word 'magician'. Magicians are described as using magia "for their own power" (Letter 155), and thus fall into the same category as 'necromancer', 'witch' and 'sorcerer'.

What I haven't been able to find and am surprised not to have is Tolkien using the word 'warlock' to describe a magic-user who is in the 'evil camp'. Particularly given the Old English etymology: waerloga ('oath-breaker' or 'deceiver'). A warlock is sometimes described as a male witch and given that Tolkien put down his own 'purist' marker in regard of 'witch' being perfectly applicable to males and females, perhaps he saw no need to throw in warlocks as well. The word 'enchanter' doesn't appear either, as far as I can make out. Even though 'enchantment' does occur occasionally, for example in the arts exercised by Lúthien and Eöl. If someone turns up a mention to either word in the legendarium please post it!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


CuriousG
Gondolin


Mar 3, 2:52am

Post #175 of 203 (6509 views)
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The temptation to tackle [In reply to] Can't Post

Every respectable rugby fan in NZ knows the real temptation in LOTR wasn't for power but the desire to deliver flying tackle hugs:


Quote

From Three Is Company:

It looked like the black shade of a horse led by a smaller All Black shadow. The All Black shadow stood close to the point where they had left the path, and it swayed from side to side. Frodo thought he heard the sound of scrum. The shadow bent to the ground, and then began to haka.
Once more the desire to tackle someone came over Frodo; but this time it was stronger than before. So strong that, almost before he realized what he was doing, his body crouched, ready to spring and fly: this time to tackle and then to hug.


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