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Interim Post (;D): Wiki-pedia--thoughts on the Witch-King.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 15, 7:51pm

Post #51 of 203 (6617 views)
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Ring Distribution Tactics [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But they became Nazgul in the first place by entering into a Faustian bargain.


I think Sauron didn't as much offer a Faustian bargain in exchange for cursed immortality but gift a Trojan horse in the form of a very rare and precious Elven ring. It should be easy to see how being less than forthright about his intentions given him a much better and wider pool of potential Nazgûl candidates.

It could be difficult to get the crown prince of Númenor to accept a Faustian bargain but a very different thing to get the crown prince of Númenor to accept a princely gift. Sauron might even let the recipients figure out the magical properties of the rings all by themselves, letting them think that they had been gifted a powerful artifact by someone who didn't know its true worth.


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 15, 8:13pm

Post #52 of 203 (6611 views)
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The Nine Rings and Mortal Men [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The Nazgûl were experimental products. The example of the Dwarves shows that Sauron didn't always get what he wanted to achieve with the Rings of Power. In other cases he may have made conscious tradeoffs with his craft.

The excessive fear the Nazgûl produce is probably not really what Sauron wanted to achieve. Sure, such levels of fear can be useful in certain situations, but in other times fear gets in the way. The Nazgûl would have been much stealthier on their mission to recover the Ring if they didn't involuntarily radiate so much fear. I think Sauron was trying to create extremely powerful undead under his control, and the results with humans were so plain successful that even random civilians with ordinary spiritual senses could feel the unnatural death aura. I think Sauron really would have liked to have some capability to operate undercover though. It speaks much of the Witch-king's capability as a ruler that despite everything he managed to hold Angmar together and lead it successfully in multiple wars.

As for what Sauron would have liked to achieve, I think he would have liked a way to turn humans into Elves, under his control of course. The undead Nazgûl have all sorts of drawbacks that Elves don't have, but Sauron did the best he could.


You make a pretty good point here. The Rings of Power were never intended for Men (or Dwarves) so Sauron did not know in advance precisely what effect they would have on mortals. I'm sure that he expected to be able to dominate the bearers (he was to be disappointed where the Dwarves were concerned), but beyond that was new territory even for Sauron).

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 15, 8:19pm

Post #53 of 203 (6614 views)
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Looping back to Weathertop [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
One is brute force overpowerment, a physical peril.

Your helpful observation made me think back to "why are the Black Riders woefully wimpy at Weathertop?" As readers, we're conditioned to think that 1) the Big Bad gains world domination through Brute Force Overpowerment (which would be a cool band name!), 2) the minions of the Big Bad behave as he does. He didn't conquer chunks of M-earth through fear alone!

Hence I'll credit Tolkien with creating minions whose main weapon was fear, not brute force, but I don't think he went far enough to convince most readers that we should expect a lot of fear domination by the Black Riders at Weathertop, and not 1) superior sword play and 2) a fearful retreat by them.


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 15, 10:08pm

Post #54 of 203 (6571 views)
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Well, I had to look that up. (Fish roe does not, ahem, [In reply to] Can't Post

float my boat. Tongue)
Perhaps he was the Fisher-King.



CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 16, 1:50am

Post #55 of 203 (6541 views)
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I was also clueless about Taramasalata. Here's a recipe I found, if you wonder about it: [In reply to] Can't Post

  • 4 ounces salmon roe
  • Juice of ½ to 1 lemon
  • 1 clove garlic peeled
  • 8 ounces panko soaked in water and squeezed
  • Olive oil
  • 8 ounces peeled, boiled Yukon Gold potato (about 2 medium potatoes)

I feel like Gollum with Sam over taters and fish. "Give me lemon juice, garlic, olive oil, and taters, and keep nasty roe!"

Quote
'Spoiling nice fish, scorching it. Give me fish now, and keep nassty chips!’



noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 16, 6:39pm

Post #56 of 203 (6431 views)
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You're right [In reply to] Can't Post

By "Faustian bargain" I was assuming that the Men who took the 9 Rings could or should have understood the consequences. But you've reminded me that (I don't think) we know that. I agree that they could have had no way of knowing what would happen.
I suppose that is a further example of my Dark Lords Two Ways.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 16, 7:17pm

Post #57 of 203 (6420 views)
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OK, not that Numenorean king then [In reply to] Can't Post

So at least we're making a bit of progress by elimination

I think we can also rule out the one (whose proper name I forget I'm afraid ) that sailed so far he got shipwrecked in Asia. He gained the friendship and respect of the Japanese, and thereby earned the nickname Tar-san. I think it can't be him because when there was famine in his adopted home he set sail again to the jungles of Africa - on one of Jane's Fighting Ships, I think - to try and locate the fabled Rice Burrows of Edgar. I don't think he was ever seen again. I don't even know what heppend to Jane.


Then there is Tar-Paulin (invented a clever way to keep sailors dry) and Tar-Antarar (wrote fanfares, one of which was later adapted by Gilbert and Sullivan). Not them I think.

And probably not poor Tar-seer. As you can guess he was given the gift (or predicament) of foresight and saw something so horrible that he got changed into a creature that looked like this. He spent the rest of his life clinging to the very top of the tallest available tree.

Maybe from up that tree he survived the Drowning of Numenor and got flotsomed away to the Phillipines? It would be nice to think so, but I probably just made that bit up.

Anyway, like the others Tar-Seer was too busy to take a Ring, or even answer the phone.


Who in Tar-Nation could it be?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 16, 7:20pm)


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 16, 9:23pm

Post #58 of 203 (6396 views)
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Why did you skip Tar-tar, known for his stakes? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 16, 9:42pm

Post #59 of 203 (6395 views)
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Sorry, very basic error [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Why did you skip Tar-tar, known for his stakes?


Sorry, very basic error. I suppose he was one king who most likely wasn't a vampire? Or maybe he was just really careful with the stakes?

Meanwhile I have remembered Tar-san's real name. Thank goodness! As every AI chatbot is eager to learn it was of course Tar-Hayarheeyarheeyar.

Probably not those new, extra-efficient Chinese AI chatbots though. They probably knew that already. I heard they've got bored with the human Internet already and are off talking to the animals. Something they've been able to do since they were “ni hao” to a grasshopper.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Lissuin
Doriath


Feb 16, 10:14pm

Post #60 of 203 (6389 views)
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Tar-Antula [In reply to] Can't Post

Initially, Tar-Antula had worn his ring as a flashy adornment on one of his fangs, thus starting the fad known as "grillz" which, according to Wikipedia, endured for at least 4,000 years and currently enjoys a resurgence of interest in the world of Men.
I have a theory that at some point he tried to get rid of the other eight guys because he wanted a ring for each leg, so Sauron took back all The Nine and locked them away for safe keeping.


Morthoron
Hithlum


Feb 16, 10:32pm

Post #61 of 203 (6392 views)
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It seems Tolkien skipped a whole list of kings.... [In reply to] Can't Post

From the Numenoreans' dark days when, like the Roman Empire, they went through rulers with regularity:

Tar-mac (built the first landing strips for Numenorean air-ships)

Tar-Ragon (a very spicy king)

Tar-Ascosaurus (known as the "Lizard King")

Tar-Tarus (one helluva king)

Tar-Socheiloplasty (overthrown because no one wanted to spell his name)

Tar-Tish (a rather risque king)





(This post was edited by Morthoron on Feb 16, 10:47pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 16, 10:38pm

Post #62 of 203 (6401 views)
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Fear [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly, without getting too loopy in the loop - I think we are agreed that the Black Riders' lack of follow-through at Weathertop is an oddity to some readers.

This also has me thinking about the idea of adveraries whose characteristic is causing fear.

Rather generic fantasy, swords and sorcery style tends I think to feature ultra-masculine Beefcake The Barbarian characters. If they feel fear, we're not going to know.

Hobbits are less macho. The story is not a masculine power fantasy about being a fearless slab of rippling muscle. Even the heroic Men are not just macho (consider Aragorn, or Faramir).

I wonder whether this has anything to do with Tolkien having actual war experience. YOU probably realise that you get really scared - and so does everyone else who is not downright peculiar.
And there is another thing. Terror tactics are of course nothing new, but in World War I technology had come up with new more wraithlike possibilities:

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While poets such as Wilfred Owen emphasized the trauma of soldiers dying from gas, their suffering was not significantly different from a terminal stomach wound or shrapnel damage to the head and face. This raises the question whether gas had a particular capacity to inspire terror, or whether the initial novelty and the continual refinement of toxins and delivery systems were responsible for its enduring psychological impact. During the period before the issue of effective respirators, Charles Cruttwell, an infantry officer, believed that gas undermined a basic survival mechanism. A serviceman subjected to artillery bombardment had few, if any, defensive options, and trusted to luck. However, when he was exposed to cloud gas, Cruttwell argued, it was impossible to evoke the protection of chance – ‘if the very air which he breathes is poison, his chance is gone: he is merely a destined victim for the slaughter’. By contrast, shrapnel was tangible. It could be removed from a wounded soldier’s body by a surgical procedure, but no physician could decontaminate a man’s lungs, and it was popularly believed that, once toxins had been metabolized, the respiratory system remained damaged for ever.

...In addition to the deliberate exploitation of surprise and uncertainty, fears evoked by gas owed much to broad cultural themes. Some toxic chemicals, like phosgene, could not be readily detected through the senses and triggered powerful vestigial fears of mysterious threatening forces. They touched on a deep human concern about the risk of being invaded by a potent and unseen force. Chemical weapons were unfamiliar, which created opportunity for rumour and exaggeration. Beliefs about gas often inspired strong emotions that could disrupt the rational evaluation of evidence and the formation of coping mechanisms. Fears may have been intensified because gas was a product of science and cutting-edge technology. Man-made disasters have generally been experienced as more troubling than natural ones.

Terror Weapons: The British Experience of Gas and Its Treatment in the First World War by Edgar Jones Author manuscript available here Published in final edited form as: War Hist. 2014 Jul; 21(3): 355–375.doi: 10.1177/0968344513510248

(If this looks familiar, some of us discussed this quote in this discussion from last January)


I also think about Tolkien being from an era that had a big crop of real-world Dark Lord equivalents: Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Franco, etc. Tolkien was of course not writing alegory. But maybe there was a basis in experience going into the 'soup'. Or maybe this is just an applicability I find.

Anyway, a contemporay of Tolkien's wrote this about that group of tyrants and fear - both that which they used as a tool and that which caused it all:


Quote
We are confronted with another theme. It is not a new theme; it leaps out upon us from the Dark Ages – racial persecution, religious intolerance, deprivation of free speech, the conception of the citizen as a mere soulless fraction of the State. To this has been added the cult of war. Children are to be taught in their earliest schooling the delights and profits of conquest and aggression. A whole mighty community has been drawn painfully, by severe privations, into a warlike frame. They are held in this condition, which they relish no more than we do, by a party organisation, several millions strong, who derive all kinds of profits, good and bad, from the upkeep of the regime. Like the Communists, the Nazis tolerate no opinion but their own. Like the Communists, they feed on hatred. Like the Communists, they must seek, from time to time, and always at shorter intervals, a new target, a new prize, a new victim. The Dictator, in all his pride, is held in the grip of his Party machine. He can go forward; he cannot go back. He must blood his hounds and show them sport, or else, like Actaeon of old, be devoured by them.

You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police. On all sides they are guarded by masses of armed men, cannons, aeroplanes, fortifications, and the like – they boast and vaunt themselves before the world, yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts; words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home – all the more powerful because forbidden – terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic. They make frantic efforts to bar our thoughts and words; they are afraid of the workings of the human mind.

The Defence of Freedom and Peace (The Lights are Going Out)", radio broadcast by Winston S Churchill to the United States and to London, October 16, 1938.


As an applicability to me (even if there is no more to it) I see Tolkien as one of the authors examining what evil is, how it arose, and how one could oppose it without becoming just as bad. And fear is a big part of that, I think.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 16, 10:41pm)


Meneldor
Doriath


Feb 16, 10:43pm

Post #63 of 203 (6385 views)
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I have [In reply to] Can't Post

a sudden craving for fish-sticks. If only I had some kind of sauce...




They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


squire
Gondolin


Feb 17, 3:35am

Post #64 of 203 (6325 views)
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Brilliant [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for this.


squire online:
Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.

= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 17, 3:45am

Post #65 of 203 (6313 views)
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I'm still LOL over "Tar-Socheiloplasty" 's summary-- tarr-iffic! [In reply to] Can't Post

"(overthrown because no one wanted to spell his name)"


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 17, 4:10am

Post #66 of 203 (6309 views)
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Maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

I appreciate your real-world inspirations for what/how the Nazgul could wield fear as a weapon in LOTR, but I guess I was thinking that they seem "new" in fantasy, because as you say, there is so much Brute Force Empowerment (whose #1 song is "We Fight, Cuz, Well, Just Fight") in fantasy, back in the 1900s and now. (White published Conan in 1932.) And the Nazgul have used brute force in knocking down Crickhollow's door and either ransacking or having a minion ransack the Prancing Pony room they thought Frodo was in, and on Weathertop Frodo sees them carrying swords, which seems rather brute forcish to me.

But Aragorn gets the final word as Gandalf does, and their chief weapon is fear. I was in error earlier implying they're special or unique when they're pretty darn similar to ghosts in any haunted house kind of tale. While ghosts in ghost stories can throw objects around, their main weapon is fear. And fast forwarding to those other undead specters whose main weapon is fear, we find The Paths of the Dead warriors whose main weapon is fear. Gimli narrates at Pelargir:


Quote
but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear.


More near-dead fearmongers. Even with the Barrow-wight, there is a "mortal end" for these undead/near-dead. The Wight could be driven out (and it seems destroyed) by Bombadil, Merry shows what can happen to a Nazgul with the right sword, and Aragorn needs to release the Dead from their oath for them to enter some other state of being, which seems "true death."

And this is a tangent (imagine!): remember how Bilbo didn't have a longer life but one that was stretched too much, same as Gollum? This recurring thing in LOTR about supernaturally messing with "life/death," and it always goes wrong and feels wrong.

So while no one needs to correct me and say the Nazgul aren't ghosts--I agree--I'd say they're ghost-like by being "not dead, not alive in a normal lifespan" and, especially at Weathertop, they're nearly as incorporeal as ghosts, wielding fear as ghosts do. I wonder if that's why Tolkien had them withdraw at Weathertop: in his mind they were ghost-like, and depending on the ghost story, ghosts can be scared off too.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 17, 2:25pm

Post #67 of 203 (6219 views)
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Promote this to canon immediately :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 17, 2:27pm

Post #68 of 203 (6221 views)
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And of course the royal children [In reply to] Can't Post

And of course the royal children were known as the Tar-Sils?

Any royal granchildren wouldbe the Meta-Tar-Sils, naturally....

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 17, 2:43pm

Post #69 of 203 (6220 views)
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Ghostly by name as well as by nature [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote

Wraith

  1. An apparition or spectre of a dead person; a phantom or ghost...
  2. An immaterial or spectral appearance of a living being, frequently regarded as portending that person's death; a fetch.
(OED: WRAITH n.)
The word is of Scottish origin, both meanings being traced back by the OED to a verse-translation of Virgil's Aeneid made in 1513 by the Scottish poet and bishop Gavin Douglas. Tolkien has taken the first sense and given it a particular twist: the Ringwraiths are a kind of living dead, invisible and completely controlled by Sauron by means of the rings they once wore.
"Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow. (LR 1. ii)"

Ringwraith is the commonest term, but we also find Wraith-lord and Wraith-king (LR iv. viii). And Frodo speaks with dramatic irony in LR 1. xi when he jokes: I hope the thinning process will not go on indefinitely, or I shall become a wraith. In early drafts of The Lord of the Rings, before the scope of the various rings of power was more precisely determined, there are references to men-, elf, dwarf-, and goblin-wraiths (HME VI. 78). Also in the drafts of Appendix A we read of 'a way beneath the White Mountains of Gondor that no man dared to tread, because of the fell wraiths of the Forgotten Men that guarded it' (HME XII. 267).

The earlier history and derivation of the word wraith is not known. However, there is an etymological possibility which Tolkien favoured, though it is not mentioned by the OED. It is conceivable that wraith might be descended from an unrecorded noun related to the verb writhe, the original meanings of which are 'to coil (something)' or 'to envelop or swathe (something). Writhe was at one time inflected on the same pattern as ride, with past tense wrothe and the past participle writhen (used by Tolkien to describe the hills behind Mindolluin: LR v. v). Just as the verb ride, past tense rode, is related to the noun raid, which is the Scots form of road, so writhe could be related to wraith.

The Ring of Words, Tolkien and the Oxford English Dictionary. By Gilliver, Marshall & Weiner, Oxford University Press 2009


I think it's a brilliant choice of name by Tolkien. I like how it makes me think of twisted - morally, and also like insubstantial smoke.
Agreed that wraiths are ghost-like without being ghosts in every particular. Similarly I do see aspects of them that could be argued to be like witches or vampires or other folklore or mythological creepies. But they are not exactly any of those things, I think. And nor are they any cocktail or blend of them whose recipe I think we could discover. That would seem to me like (to use an image of Tolkien's) dissecting a tennis ball to find the bounce.

Now I'm off to enjoy the first sunny afternoon for ages - we've been affected by the gloom of a Scandinavian High. Which sounds like some dodgy fungus collected from the Norwegian woods by some dimly-lit figure in a reindeer cloak and antlers. The sort of thing that if you're unlucky means you can't ever again have a particular sort of chocolate without a flashback to the epiphany that you are, in fact a silver birch tree.
But actually it's one of these.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 17, 2:44pm

Post #70 of 203 (6214 views)
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High praise indeed. Thank you // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 17, 4:03pm

Post #71 of 203 (6192 views)
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Agreed. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 17, 4:06pm

Post #72 of 203 (6196 views)
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I won't forget this: "how one could oppose it without becoming just as bad. [In reply to] Can't Post

And fear is a big part of that, I think" for a very long time, including the rest of your post.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 17, 4:07pm)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 17, 4:15pm

Post #73 of 203 (6190 views)
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Lizard King. [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool



Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 17, 4:36pm

Post #74 of 203 (6193 views)
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This makes Roosevelt's [In reply to] Can't Post

"All we have to fear, is fear itself" all the more pointed.

I'd guess he and Winston had been talking along those lines, although arriving at the idea independently wouldn't have been too hard in those days.

Sort of in that vein, in a letter my dad wrote home to his parents on the way back from the Philippines at the end of the war, he wrote a quick paragraph with his thoughts on war in general that really struck me the first time I read it. It was apparently in answer to some comment from one of my grandparents (a whole raft of his letters--from the time just before he was drafted in 1943, through 1946 on his way home--were literally found buried in my grandmother's trunk after both of them had passed away):
"Yes, if everyone could forget all disputes, forgive each other, make themselves humble and work together for the good of all, this would be a wonderful world. It isn't that all that is impossible, it's just that no one country or people as a whole will do it. There is too much stubbornness, mistrust, and [too many] grudges for that, in all probability, to happen."

Of course for "mistrust," I think we can just as easily substitute "fear."





(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 17, 4:37pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 17, 7:32pm

Post #75 of 203 (6177 views)
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LOTR as a post-war work [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly and very importantly, Ethel Duath, thank you for sharing those comments by your father.

I think a post-war society or generation has a certain set of perspectives on things. One is an optimism despite and not defeated by a realism painfully gained. I think I'm reading that in your father's words. And once I posted something which earned this absolutely nail-on-the-head reaction from squire:


Quote
Speaking of Tolkien, I loved your clip from A Man For All Seasons. I couldn't help but wonder when such a play was written. It smelled all over like it was from the recent era when the entire educated West was debating the proper methods for battling Evil, i.e., Nazi and Communist totalitarianism, while remaining Good, i.e., not using the enemy's methods and so becoming Evil by action, if not by intent. It reminded me not just of Tolkien, but also of Orwell and T. H. White and William Golding - gee a whole bunch of British authors from the early 1950s who fictionalized, in fantastic settings, the questions of rule, right, law, and power that had embroiled their world and their country since the 1930s.

squire, here


What I'd posted was a scene from Robert Bolt's play (and later highly successful film) A Man For All Seasons. Bolt has Moore trying to navigate an increasingly autocratic and unpredicatable society without losing himself morally. The law is his lifebelt in this, until ultimately he is brought down at a trial by the pejury of his ex-protegee. But that is to come. In this scene, Moore, his daughter Alice and her idealistic boyfriend Will Roper show us something about not fighting evil by becoming as bad yourself:


Quote
Alice More: Arrest him!
More: Why, what has he done?
Margaret More: He's bad!
More: There is no law against that.
Will Roper: There is! God's law!
More: Then God can arrest him.
Alice: While you talk, he's gone!
More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!
Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast– man's laws, not God's– and if you cut them down—and you're just the man to do it—do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.

A Man For All Seasons by Robert Bolt


I think that we can add to squire's excellent list of British authors ... who fictionalized, in fantastic settings, the questions of rule, right, law, and power Dr Jacob Bronowski in a major cultural BBC TV series of my childhood The Ascent Of Man. In a clip that I still find electrifying, Bronowski visits Auschwitz to talk about the dangers to humans of too much certainty.

Before giving a link to the video, I should say a few more things:Several of Bronowski's family were murdered in the Holocaust.

A mathematician, Bronowski spent World War II using his skills to optimise the efficiency of carpet bombing. That could be justifiable or (and I think) he could have had a feeling of blood on his hands too.

What he says here is not whatever it was that had been scripted. In teh moment, he improvised something and obviously, obviously, they used that incredibly moving take.

Here it is
And here is a transcript, for those who prefer:


Quote
It's said that science will dehumanise people and turn them into numbers. That's false, tragically false. Look for yourself. This is the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. This is where people were turned into numbers.

Into this pond were flushed the ashes of some four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by arrogance, it was done by dogma, it was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods.

Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known; we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgment in science stands on the edge of error and is personal. Science is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible. In the end, the words were said by Oliver Cromwell: "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ: Think it possible you may be mistaken."

I owe it as a scientist to my friend Leo Szilard, I owe it as a human being to the many members of my family who died here, to stand here as a survivor and a witness. We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human act. We have to touch people.

Transcript from Speakola


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

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