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Interim Post (;D): Wiki-pedia--thoughts on the Witch-King.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 13, 5:36pm

Post #26 of 203 (7425 views)
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Ah! Yes, I left that one out. Perfect! [In reply to] Can't Post

If ever oh ever a Witch there was, the Wiki-King is one because, [because, because, because, because, because . . . . .], because of the terrible things he does!



Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 13, 6:53pm

Post #27 of 203 (7417 views)
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Unlikely [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This is not a theory original to me, but I remember having read a very convincing argument for how the Witch-king would be Tar-Atanamir.

This gives rise to another question: Which would have the better claim for the throne of Gondor, Aragorn or Tar-Atanamir?

There are serious problems with this hypothesis. One has to explain how the thirteenth king of Númenor could have even acquired one of the Great Rings.

1. Sauron was not in Númenor within Tar-Atanamir's lifetime, nor was the thirteenth king ever in Middle-earth as far as we know. Sauron would have needed an agent who could be trusted to bring a Ring to Númenor and pass it to the king. And there would still need to be a Ring that was available.

2. The Nine Rings of Men were distributed by Sauron centuries before the birth of Tar-Atanamir. His reign (S.A. 2029 - 2221) ended with his death and, presumably, his burial.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 13, 7:11pm

Post #28 of 203 (7411 views)
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Probably should have been Tar-Ciryatan, actually... [In reply to] Can't Post

I apologize for writing hastily. The real Witch-king would actually probably have been Tar-Atanamir's father Tar-Ciryatan, and all the bad things would have started during Tar-Atanamir's reign because the undead Tar-Ciryatan was still ruling from the shadows after having officially "died".

I checked and the king that lived entirely too long in some versions of chronology (presumed to be the correct unredacted ones) was Tar-Ciryatan.

It's easy to make this sort of mistakes when not talking about a theory one developed oneself...


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 13, 7:25pm

Post #29 of 203 (7412 views)
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Ring Logistics [In reply to] Can't Post

Continuing from the Tar-Ciryatan = the Witch-king theory:

Tar-Minastir sent a fleet to Middle-earth to help Gil-galad. The future king Tar-Ciryatan would likely have been commanding the fleet. This gets Tar-Ciryatan to Middle-earth within easy reach of ring dispersal.

It would also be theoretically possible that Tar-Ciryatan held suspicions about the ring and did not use it, but his son Tar-Atanamir was curious and got caught.


(This post was edited by Silvered-glass on Feb 13, 7:29pm)


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 13, 7:54pm

Post #30 of 203 (7408 views)
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Minastir's Fleet [In reply to] Can't Post

We know who commanded Minastir's fleet and it was not his son, Ciryatan. The commander did have a similar name though: Ciryatur. So perhaps the two were cousins? The fleet was actually sent during the reign of Minastir's aunt, the queen Tar-Telperiën, who ruled from S.A. 1556 to 1731.

We only have speculation that Ciryatan could have been a member of the expedition. I am aware of no evidence that supports that supposition; however, if he was in Middle-earth, Ciryatan could have been the first Númenórean to receive a Ring and could have become the Witch-king. But that is a lot of "coulds"--too many for my liking. The commander Ciryatur is in some respects a better candidate. At least we know that he actually was in Middle-earth. It doesn't seem likely he'd be accepting a gift from Sauron though.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 13, 8:04pm)


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 13, 8:47pm

Post #31 of 203 (7397 views)
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Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if Tar-Ciryatan wasn't the supreme commander of the fleet, he almost certainly would have been involved in a major role. I checked and he would have been 66 years old at the time. Ciryatur might have been his uncle.

Anyway, Tar-Ciryatan is known to have traveled all over the place in his youth.

From UT:

Quote
He scorned the yearnings of his father, and eased the restlessness of his heart by voyaging, east, and north, and south, until he took the sceptre.


The discrepancies with the timeline are the biggest reason to suspect Tar-Ciryatan. Though, it can be hard to figure out Tolkien's true intentions in this case. He might even have changed his mind about the Witch-king's identity, so that it was originally Tar-Ciryatan but later changed to Tar-Atanamir. The choice of Tar-Ciryatan also requires for the corruption of the ring to be much slower. The choice of Tar-Atanamir would be more consistent with the idea of Men quickly falling into corruption. Tar-Atanamir choosing to use the ring would also be consistent with the old pattern of a son of an accomplished father struggling with feelings of inferiority. A son in such a situation might dare to use a Ring of Power to become a powerful ruler even mightier than his father.

After a bit of thought, I think I prefer Tar-Atanamir for the Witch-king, and not only because the 13th king becoming the Witch-king would be numerically appropriate, perhaps even the origin of the superstition mentioned in The Hobbit.

From UT:

Quote
Much is said of this King in the Annals, such as now survive the Downfall.


It seems that Tar-Atanamir got a lot of things done, including many things not listed in the very brief entries about the rulers of Númenor. Arguing from absence of evidence is dangerous in situations such as this.


Morthoron
Hithlum


Feb 14, 3:47am

Post #32 of 203 (7370 views)
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Nope... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tar-Atanamir died "witless and unmanned" per Tolkien. A witless old dotard is hardly a candidate for the Nazgul.

Plus, according to Appendix B, the nine Nazgul appeared during the first years of the reign of Tar-Atanamir; ergo, the WitchKing had taken the Ring from Sauron and was corrupted long before Tar-Atanamir even ascended the throne.

I would suggest a Southern Lord of a renegade Numenorean house in Far Harad would be a more likely candidate, and more accessible to Sauron.





Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 14, 4:07am

Post #33 of 203 (7368 views)
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The Travels of Tar-Ciryatan [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Even if Tar-Ciryatan wasn't the supreme commander of the fleet, he almost certainly would have been involved in a major role. I checked and he would have been 66 years old at the time. Ciryatur might have been his uncle.

Anyway, Tar-Ciryatan is known to have traveled all over the place in his youth.

From UT:

Quote
He scorned the yearnings of his father, and eased the restlessness of his heart by voyaging, east, and north, and south, until he took the sceptre.



Admittedly, I didn't check Unfinished Tales for additional information. There's nothing about Tar-Cirytan's travels in Appendix A or at Tolkien Gateway. Still, Tolkien provided documentation of his life and death, making him a poor candidate for Wraith-hood.

I've already explained why I don't think it is possible for Tar-Atanamir to have been one of the Nazgûl.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 14, 4:09am)


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 14, 1:51pm

Post #34 of 203 (7322 views)
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Tar-Atanamir's Dates [In reply to] Can't Post

This matter is confused by contradictions in the published material especially with regard to the timelines.

For example, on the subject of Tar-Ciryatan living for more than 600 years in one version, there are several options:
a) Tolkien made an unintentional mistake, which he later corrected.
b) Tolkien's consistent intention was that Tar-Ciryatan was the Witch-king. The version with the shorter lifespan is meant to reflect the official history rather than the real truth. Tolkien could have intended for both versions to be published so that the reader could have noticed the discrepancy and found the clue to the hidden literary Easter egg.
c) Tolkien decided that Tar-Ciryatan was the Witch-king but then decided otherwise and edited the timeline of Númenor to change that.

I tend to think "c" is correct, but I'm open to changing my mind. I haven't researched this matter very deeply.


In Reply To
Tar-Atanamir died "witless and unmanned" per Tolkien. A witless old dotard is hardly a candidate for the Nazgul.


Tolkien doesn't actually say that, and there is also the issue of the identity of the Witch-king having possibly changed between the various drafts that Tolkien didn't publish in his lifetime.


In Reply To
Plus, according to Appendix B, the nine Nazgul appeared during the first years of the reign of Tar-Atanamir; ergo, the WitchKing had taken the Ring from Sauron and was corrupted long before Tar-Atanamir even ascended the throne.


This was one of the points changed in the 50th Anniversary edition by Hammond & Scull. Following Christopher Tolkien's lead they were convinced that the original was in error and the Nazgûl actually appeared on the year Tar-Atanamir died.

(Note: Dying does not preclude becoming undead.)


In Reply To
I would suggest a Southern Lord of a renegade Numenorean house in Far Harad would be a more likely candidate, and more accessible to Sauron.


The problem with that is that there is no evidence that a renegade Númenorean house in Far Harad, especially one so early in the timeline, even existed in the first place.


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 14, 2:52pm

Post #35 of 203 (7317 views)
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Numenorean Dominions [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I would suggest a Southern Lord of a renegade Numenorean house in Far Harad would be a more likely candidate, and more accessible to Sauron.


The problem with that is that there is no evidence that a renegade Númenorean house in Far Harad, especially one so early in the timeline, even existed in the first place.


There's no problem here, really. We don't need a renegade Númenorean house in Far Harad or anyplace else. All we have to do is consult Tolkien's timeline of the Second Age (Appendix B):

Circa S.A. 1800: "From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor."

We know that at this time the Númenoreans return to Middle-earth not as teachers but as rulers and oppressors, exploiting Middle-earth for resources. This new attitude makes them prime candidates for Sauron's advances (thus, many viewers' certainty that the character Kemen of The Rings of Power will be targeted by Sauron for one of the Nine Rings, as the show is now reflecting this period of Númenorean expansion).

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 14, 2:53pm)


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 14, 4:57pm

Post #36 of 203 (7305 views)
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Tar-Atanamir's Biography [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Admittedly, I didn't check Unfinished Tales for additional information. There's nothing about Tar-Cirytan's travels in Appendix A or at Tolkien Gateway. Still, Tolkien provided documentation of his life and death, making him a poor candidate for Wraith-hood.

I've already explained why I don't think it is possible for Tar-Atanamir to have been one of the Nazgûl.


The Nazgûl as kings would naturally have been historical figures.

I think the Nazgûl really died and became undead after death, much like a traditional vampire would, so having a recorded date of death in no way disqualifies someone from being a Nazgûl.

I don't think the issue of the ring delivery over an ocean is a show-stopper. Tar-Ciryatan traveled notably much in his youth, but Tar-Atanamir visiting Middle-earth at least once before he became the king wouldn't have been particularly worth mentioning by an in-world historian in the very brief summary of Tar-Atanamir's biography. There is also nothing to say that Sauron had to deliver the rings in person.

Sauron also didn't necessarily distribute all the rings immediately. He may have taken a while to refine his plans to perfection, and being an immortal with a different sense of time from humans, his idea of a while could easily have been a few centuries when there was no pressing need to act right at that moment. It's not like the rings had sell-by dates on them.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 14, 5:11pm

Post #37 of 203 (7301 views)
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Númenorean Future King [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
There's no problem here, really. We don't need a renegade Númenorean house in Far Harad or anyplace else. All we have to do is consult Tolkien's timeline of the Second Age (Appendix B):

Circa S.A. 1800: "From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor."

We know that at this time the Númenoreans return to Middle-earth not as teachers but as rulers and oppressors, exploiting Middle-earth for resources. This new attitude makes them prime candidates for Sauron's advances (thus, many viewers' certainty that the character Kemen of The Rings of Power will be targeted by Sauron for one of the Nine Rings, as the show is now reflecting this period of Númenorean expansion).


The timeline has no mention about a rebellion or colonies declaring independence. Therefore if we are looking for a Númenorean lord who became a king, the legal heir to the throne would be the most likely candidate. It would also make much sense for Sauron to focus his attempts on such an individual.

Also, the line "The shadow falls on Númenor" implies that it falls on Númenor itself.


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 14, 6:16pm

Post #38 of 203 (7306 views)
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Any thoughts on the "Why"? That is, [In reply to] Can't Post

what strategic plot turns hinge on there being such creatures, as opposed to, say, trolls or orcs? I'm referring both to Tolkien's strategy as a writer as well as Sauron's-within-the-books.

I can see the need for more intelligent creatures that are allowed to have, and are able to exercise, a certain amount of independent thought and strategy--more so than orcs are allowed.

But also, as Squire said, what about the "value" of the Fear Factor?



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 14, 6:17pm)


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 14, 8:36pm

Post #39 of 203 (7294 views)
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Kings, Sorcerers, Warriors [In reply to] Can't Post

Outside of the Peter Jackson films it is never said that all of the Nazgûl were kings in life, at least not before they were given Rings. What Tolkien stated in his essay "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" was:

Quote
Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing.


Some of them may indeed have already been rulers of their lands before they received their gift from Sauron, but that does not necessarily include any of the three (or more?) Númenóreans who were given Rings. On the subject of undeath, Tolkien's essay continues:

Quote
They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron’s. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy’s most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.


While the Ringwraiths might have shared a few common traits with the vampires of folklore, they were very different in other respects. There's no evidence that they drank blood or needed the life force of others. They never physically died but rather faded until they dwelt almost entirely in the spirit realm. They didn't need to rest in the day, much less return to coffins or tombs or their native soil. Also, Tolkien's Vampires were not mortal Men but were corrupted Maiar (or were the huge bats that appeared at the Battle of Five Armies in The Hobbit). You have yet to make your case for vampiric Nazgûl.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 14, 8:43pm

Post #40 of 203 (7290 views)
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Rebellion? Independence? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
There's no problem here, really. We don't need a renegade Númenorean house in Far Harad or anyplace else. All we have to do is consult Tolkien's timeline of the Second Age (Appendix B):

Circa S.A. 1800: "From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor."

We know that at this time the Númenoreans return to Middle-earth not as teachers but as rulers and oppressors, exploiting Middle-earth for resources. This new attitude makes them prime candidates for Sauron's advances (thus, many viewers' certainty that the character Kemen of The Rings of Power will be targeted by Sauron for one of the Nine Rings, as the show is now reflecting this period of Númenorean expansion).


The timeline has no mention about a rebellion or colonies declaring independence. Therefore if we are looking for a Númenorean lord who became a king, the legal heir to the throne would be the most likely candidate. It would also make much sense for Sauron to focus his attempts on such an individual.

Also, the line "The shadow falls on Númenor" implies that it falls on Númenor itself.


Where did I say anything about rebellions or colonies declaring independence? Answer: I didn't. Not a word.

The shadow that fell over Númenor was a shadow of their own making. It was the rebellion of the Númenoreans against the Valar and the limits that they imposed upon them. Sauron came later, though his influence upon those Númenoreans dwelling in Middle-earth might have been a factor.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 14, 9:45pm

Post #41 of 203 (7288 views)
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Why do we have Wicked Wiki? [In reply to] Can't Post

Even with Tolkien's (surprisingly repeated) attention to Orcs (Rohan, Cirith Ungol, Mordor) as thinking beings who are *not* monolithic in their behavior and agendas, they still seem to behave en masse as mindless killing machines and cannon fodder. I think the Nazgul, by being limited to Nine, seem like they're more precious to Sauron by number alone: he can't easily breed replacement Nazgul the way he can orcs. So, Nazgul are 1) valued, 2) more intelligent than a killing machine, and 3) in Sauron's inner circle and thus, we assume, privy to his secrets and strategies, which it's pretty clear that the average orc is not. So by virtue of #3, the Nazgul give us, we hope, an insight or connection to Sauron the Unseen Dark Lord, even though that expectation is never rewarded.

I think Saruman plays a sort of Nazgul role too, and he rewards #3 above: Saruman spills the beans both wittingly and unwittingly, and as a corrupted former ally and counterpart of Gandalf's, I think we're better able to see into Sauron's corrupt goals and strategies by putting Saruman in our petri dish.

Yet another answer to your excellent "why," Ethel, is that I think we're all suckers for hierarchy. A leader of orcs, even if it's a million orcs, isn't quite as impressive as someone who sits at the top of a pyramidal power tree, so having intermediate minions like the Nazgul makes Sauron look more like a king and less like a chief ruffian among ruffians.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 14, 10:59pm

Post #42 of 203 (7265 views)
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King and Sorcerer and Warrior [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Outside of the Peter Jackson films it is never said that all of the Nazgûl were kings in life, at least not before they were given Rings. What Tolkien stated in his essay "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" was:

Quote
Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing.

Some of them may indeed have already been rulers of their lands before they received their gift from Sauron, but that does not necessarily include any of the three (or more?) Númenóreans who were given Rings.


King, sorcerer, warrior - the Witch-king would have been all three at once. Middle-earth isn't D&D with distinct character classes. The Witch-king fights with physical weapons on a field of battle, has been known to control the weather over a wide area, and has ruled over a kingdom. On Weathertop all the nine Nazgûl have swords and crowns, presumably not for no reason, and obviously all of the Nazgûl had Rings of Power which alone are sufficient cause to explain how the Nazgûl could have become known as sorcerers.


In Reply To
While the Ringwraiths might have shared a few common traits with the vampires of folklore, they were very different in other respects. There's no evidence that they drank blood or needed the life force of others. They never physically died but rather faded until they dwelt almost entirely in the spirit realm. They didn't need to rest in the day, much less return to coffins or tombs or their native soil. Also, Tolkien's Vampires were not mortal Men but were corrupted Maiar (or were the huge bats that appeared at the Battle of Five Armies in The Hobbit). You have yet to make your case for vampiric Nazgûl.


Tolkien outright uses the adjective "undead" to refer to the Witch-king's flesh. The word "undead" is normally used to refer to things that have already died once and are no longer properly alive but are still moving on their own, somehow.

Anyway, there are different types of fictional vampires. All authors pick and choose from among the vampire traits. For example, having to sleep in one's own native soil is not a common vampire trait at all, even if Dracula has it, and not all vampires are inactive by day.

My post on vampires isn't currently finished, so I'm trying to avoid getting too deep into this, but I'm going to make a case that the Nazgûl do drink blood. There is actually some textual basis for this, even if it isn't as airtight as some might prefer it.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 14, 11:23pm

Post #43 of 203 (7260 views)
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The Purpose of the Nazgûl [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Where did I say anything about rebellions or colonies declaring independence? Answer: I didn't. Not a word.


I was thinking in the context of the Nazgûl becoming kings.

I think the entire point of distributing the Rings of Power was not to gain control of a single-digit number of powerful individuals but to gain control over nations through the individuals possessing the rings. Sauron definitely would have found a country as powerful as Númenor too important to ignore.


In Reply To
The shadow that fell over Númenor was a shadow of their own making. It was the rebellion of the Númenoreans against the Valar and the limits that they imposed upon them. Sauron came later, though his influence upon those Númenoreans dwelling in Middle-earth might have been a factor.


The shadow being connected to the faction known as the King's men implies that the corruption flowed from above. The Númenoreans were envious of the immortal life of the Eldar, and you know what the Rings of Power can do to a mortal? Right. A Ring of Power in the hand of the king would explain very well how the rebellion started to take root.


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 14, 11:41pm

Post #44 of 203 (7261 views)
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Ah, very interesting. [In reply to] Can't Post

Replacement Nazgul are certainly unavailable, at least at short notice, seeing as it would need years, possibly more rings, and a willing supply of Black Numenorians or the like.

That's interesting about #3. It's true we don't get a lot of direct or detailed information from them about Sauron. But being so high in the hierarchy and connected closely enough to Sauron to in some ways share or reflect his nature, I think the way they operate does give us both insight and connection. They think like he thinks, expects what he expects, and they most likely operate in the way he would operate if he had lost sufficient power to not be able to function in even as limited away as he did at Dol Guldur, and had to go slipping around incognito in order to hunt the Ring. (I wonder how Farmer Maggot's dogs would've reacted in that scenario!)



Morthoron
Hithlum


Feb 15, 12:44am

Post #45 of 203 (7256 views)
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Last post on this... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This matter is confused by contradictions in the published material especially with regard to the timelines.

For example, on the subject of Tar-Ciryatan living for more than 600 years in one version, there are several options:
a) Tolkien made an unintentional mistake, which he later corrected.
b) Tolkien's consistent intention was that Tar-Ciryatan was the Witch-king. The version with the shorter lifespan is meant to reflect the official history rather than the real truth. Tolkien could have intended for both versions to be published so that the reader could have noticed the discrepancy and found the clue to the hidden literary Easter egg.
c) Tolkien decided that Tar-Ciryatan was the Witch-king but then decided otherwise and edited the timeline of Númenor to change that.


No where that I can find Tolkien saying he "decided that Tar-Ciryatin was the WitchKing but then decided otherwise." Unless you have direct quotes, it is simply made up by you.


In Reply To
Tolkien doesn't actually say that, and there is also the issue of the identity of the Witch-king having possibly changed between the various drafts that Tolkien didn't publish in his lifetime.


But he does. I quoted "witless and unmanned" directly from The Silmarillion, and to back that up, there is a like line from Unfinished Tales in "The Line Of Elros" Chapter:

"Atanamir is called the Unwilling, for he was the first of the Kings to refuse to lay down his life, or to renounce his sceptre; and he lived until death took him perforce in dotage."

Dotage. Witless. Unmanned. Ol' Tanny was a senile decrepit coot when he bought the farm. He was dead as a doornail. Not undead. Not a vampire. Just dead. There is absolutely nothing that refutes that. And I have provided two sources.

And with that, I am out. Endless circular arguments are fruitless when it comes to you and your "theories".





(This post was edited by Morthoron on Feb 15, 12:44am)


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 15, 2:05am

Post #46 of 203 (7247 views)
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Rulers Needn't be Kings [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
King, sorcerer, warrior - the Witch-king would have been all three at once. Middle-earth isn't D&D with distinct character classes. The Witch-king fights with physical weapons on a field of battle, has been known to control the weather over a wide area, and has ruled over a kingdom. On Weathertop all the nine Nazgûl have swords and crowns, presumably not for no reason, and obviously all of the Nazgûl had Rings of Power which alone are sufficient cause to explain how the Nazgûl could have become known as sorcerer.

Not all leaders or rulers are kings (or queens). Númenórean settlements or fortresses in Middle-earth would have had their own governors or commanders who themselves could have been prime targets for Sauron. The Dark Lord's spies could have even identified the local leaders of rival factions (such as the King's Men versus the Faithful). All of the Númenórean lords who became Ringwraiths could have been (and probably were) the leaders of Middle-earth settlements or factions.


In Reply To
The shadow being connected to the faction known as the King's men implies that the corruption flowed from above. The Númenoreans were envious of the immortal life of the Eldar, and you know what the Rings of Power can do to a mortal? Right. A Ring of Power in the hand of the king would explain very well how the rebellion started to take root.


The discontent of the King's Men was able to arise with no need of help from Sauron. Envy and fear are all-too human conditions and the Men of Númenor were as vulnerable to them as anyone else.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 15, 2:09am)


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 15, 9:59am

Post #47 of 203 (7132 views)
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The Meaning of King's Men [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not all leaders or rulers are kings (or queens). Númenórean settlements or fortresses in Middle-earth would have had their own governors or commanders who themselves could have been prime targets for Sauron. The Dark Lord's spies could have even identified the local leaders of rival factions (such as the King's Men versus the Faithful). All of the Númenórean lords who became Ringwraiths could have been (and probably were) the leaders of Middle-earth settlements or factions.


All the Middle-earth settlements especially at the time were small fry when compared to the Númenorean mainland. The one who would control the throne of Númenor would also control the settlements.

It is inconceivable to me that Sauron wouldn't prioritize the true seat of power in Númenor. Sauron could even have given the ring in person (preferably to the current king's legal heir, as that would have been the tactically ideal choice) by paying attention to when visits to the colonies were happening. I think Sauron has shown that he is more than capable of this level of cunning, which honestly isn't all that complicated really.


In Reply To
The discontent of the King's Men was able to arise with no need of help from Sauron. Envy and fear are all-too human conditions and the Men of Númenor were as vulnerable to them as anyone else.


Think about how come the faction would have become known as the "Kings' Men" and not something else. Names like that aren't random. Even that the King's Men became a proper faction implies that there was some sort of central core and not just a general lack of piety among the populace.

My conclusion is that the king of Númenor was the driving factor behind the King's Men. The King's Men called themselves that because they were loyal to their earthly king of the exalted line of Elros and followed his lead.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 15, 6:52pm

Post #48 of 203 (7043 views)
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What do the Nazgul bring? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a matter of opinion of course, but for me (overlapping with CuriousG's ideas)...

I think that the horror of Sauron (and Saruman, and all the Dark Lords) is two-fold.

One is brute force overpowerment, a physical peril. For example, your little land could be overrun by orcs and trolls.
The other side is terror and despair that beat down independence, and corruption - activating that side of a character that rather fancies a bit if Darklordism of it's own.
The Nazgul bring us both.

Obviously what they would do to Frodo if they caught him is Not Very Nice - physical peril.

But they became Nazgul in the first place by entering into a Faustian bargain. And what the combination of Black Riders and the Ring --both as emanations of Sauron so no wonder we can't dissect the exact contributions of each -- do to Frodo repeatedly in Book I is much the same. He feels the temptation to use the Ring and at first mistakes it for his urgent need to be safe. Do the wrong thing because of an overwhelming need for a short term benefit. But of course that would quickly backfire, wouldn't it? Indeed it does when he succumbs at Weathertop.

So I think the Nazgul represent the ultimate of surrender to Sauron.

And the Nazgul also represent something like what Frodo would become personally were he to succumb. He's told as much by Gandalf (Book II Ch1).

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 15, 7:01pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 15, 6:55pm

Post #49 of 203 (7041 views)
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I saw someone online who reckons that... [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw someone online who reckons that it was Tar-Amasalata. But I think that's a bit fishy.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 15, 7:35pm

Post #50 of 203 (7034 views)
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Design Feature vs. Side Effect [In reply to] Can't Post


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what strategic plot turns hinge on there being such creatures, as opposed to, say, trolls or orcs? I'm referring both to Tolkien's strategy as a writer as well as Sauron's-within-the-books.

I can see the need for more intelligent creatures that are allowed to have, and are able to exercise, a certain amount of independent thought and strategy--more so than orcs are allowed.

But also, as Squire said, what about the "value" of the Fear Factor?


The Nazgûl were experimental products. The example of the Dwarves shows that Sauron didn't always get what he wanted to achieve with the Rings of Power. In other cases he may have made conscious tradeoffs with his craft.

The excessive fear the Nazgûl produce is probably not really what Sauron wanted to achieve. Sure, such levels of fear can be useful in certain situations, but in other times fear gets in the way. The Nazgûl would have been much stealthier on their mission to recover the Ring if they didn't involuntarily radiate so much fear. I think Sauron was trying to create extremely powerful undead under his control, and the results with humans were so plain successful that even random civilians with ordinary spiritual senses could feel the unnatural death aura. I think Sauron really would have liked to have some capability to operate undercover though. It speaks much of the Witch-king's capability as a ruler that despite everything he managed to hold Angmar together and lead it successfully in multiple wars.

As for what Sauron would have liked to achieve, I think he would have liked a way to turn humans into Elves, under his control of course. The undead Nazgûl have all sorts of drawbacks that Elves don't have, but Sauron did the best he could.

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