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Interim Post (;D): Wiki-pedia--thoughts on the Witch-King.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 9, 7:36pm

Post #1 of 203 (10266 views)
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Interim Post (;D): Wiki-pedia--thoughts on the Witch-King. Can't Post

Who, What, Where, and Why? Here are a few posts from the past, with some questions.

Questions:

Who was he, himself, and apparently nameless? http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=41123#41123

What sort of "critter" was he? Attributes, physical/spiritual nature, etc.Nazgul in general, but it may apply:

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=68978#68978


and http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=83513#83513

He has more limits than he would like to acknowledge, in my opinion. Gandalf doesn't move, and the dawn still comes.

"'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.

Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.


And also, what was his character, as in personality/personal reactions and intentions?
http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=83512#83512

Where . . .

did he come from, and where did he go? (Renditions of Cotton-eyed Joe accepted in separate posts.Wink)

Is there evidence, or at least good reason to believe he rode a Fell Beast at any point?

Where does he definitely show up in Lotr and what strikes you about those moments (Appendices included.)

Why

What is Tolkien's purpose/purposes in writing such a character?

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=305116#305116




(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 9, 7:37pm)


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 11, 12:41am

Post #2 of 203 (9976 views)
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Wiki’d Witch-king: Wraith-y Words and Wretched Wisdom [In reply to] Can't Post

So coincidentally, someone asked on Reddit why the Nazgul backed off like wimps when Aragorn--outnumbered 5 to 1 and wielding only a stick on fire--chased them off. And to be fair to all Tolkien fans, the LOTR just plain doesn't explain it in a satisfactory way, either right after the event or when Gandalf muses upon it in Rivendell at Frodo's bedside. And luckily for us, Tolkien wasn't satisfied either, and provided an explanation in The Hunt for the Ring:

Quote
It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted of the night Oct. 6-7, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that [the Witch- king] again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring.

But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron’s will was the stronger.


So we learn quite a bit in only 3 paragraphs (bless you, JRR!):
1. Wiki felt fear! Too bad he wasn't afraid of Eowyn later on (hahahahahaha). He feared Aragorn (without knowing who he was), he feared that silly little hobbit who had somehow bested a Barrow-wight (not knowing Bombadil had done the besting), and he feared Frodo's enchanted blade that was dedicated to kill the Witch-king of Angmar. Now to be fair about this, if a hobbit came at me with a sword emblazoned with "Death and Destruction and Mortal Woe to CuriousG," I would be scared too, so I'm with the Wiki on this one.

2. Wiki felt fear of his master too. I suppose anyone reading LOTR should assume this, because the Wise remind us repeatedly that Sauron rules through fear, but I think there's still the temptation to think that Sauron's trusted cronies and Elite Minions are in a inner circle that's not subject to fear. But wrong--they are.

3. Wiki felt lingering fear of Gandalf. OK, let's be frank: the text doesn't tease readers into thinking this at all. I'll repeat Gandalf's narration, and tell me where it says the Nazgul were afraid of him AFTER the battle--it was Gandalf who was afraid!

Gandalf in The Council of Elrond:

Quote
‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.

‘At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more.'

>> This always sounds to me like Gandalf is the one who's outmatched and afraid, and of course he's outnumbered, but still, the Black Riders just wait until nightfall when they'll be at their strongest. Gandalf is the one who runs away--and runs and runs. But of course it's told from Gandalf's POV, so I'm glad to get Tolkien's info about the Wiki's POV. The Black Riders indeed drove off that mysterious wizard, but they were disturbed by the fight he put up. This wasn't supposed to happen: getting the Ring from a hobbit was supposed to be an easy smash and grab, not an epic battle.

Later at the Ford of Bruinen we get a little more about Nazgul fear, but again it's muted:
Gandalf to Frodo in Many Meetings:

Quote
'Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed, and their horses were stricken with madness. Three were carried away by the first assault of the flood; the others were now hurled into the water by their horses and overwhelmed.’


>> Notice that he says "dismayed." Look, I get "dismayed" when I go to the grocery store and they're out of eggs due to avian flu, but that's not the same as "terrified" or "petrified by fear," and what's really moving and shaking the scene is the madness of their horses rather than the Black Riders' fear. Still, I'm not arguing they weren't afraid, they just don't sound all that scared, only a little.

Key to all this is the fact that the Wiki is mortal and knows it, or "mortal" in the sense that he could be killed if you knew how to break the spell protecting him.

So, how about we contrast the Wiki's fear at Weathertop with his seeming lack of fear in 1) attacking Gandalf solo, without his 8 douche-bros, at Minas Tirith, and also with Gandalf's seeming lack of fear in facing the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum: was Gandalf afraid and sucking it up, or not afraid? Does it matter? (Obviously I think it does, but YMMV.)


Morthoron
Hithlum


Feb 11, 4:07am

Post #3 of 203 (9941 views)
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Remember also the Battle of Fornost... [In reply to] Can't Post

Where Glorfindel chased away the WitchKing of Angmar. Glorfindel (the "Elf-lord revealed in his wrath") evidently has no qualms taking on the WiKi. After all, what's a mere mortal with a ring compared to fighting a Balrog?

In any case, Glorfindel allows the WiKi to flee in fear from Fornost, telling Earnur the immortal lines:

"Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."





noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 11, 9:30pm

Post #4 of 203 (9778 views)
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Ah those wimpy Black Riders! [In reply to] Can't Post

As it happens my first visit to these boards many years ago was because I was wondering why the Black Riders didn't press their attack at Weathertop, and I found this post by Curious.

Tolkien says that the Nazgul are absolute slaves to Sauron's will, and that seems to be inconsistent with them not getting the Ring at all costs -- keep pressing the attack at Weathertop and take some casulaties! Or rip Bree apart!

It's one of those things that [whisper] doesn't quite work[/whisper] - like the UT bit about the Nazgul being unable to cross water (until they do). Or the Black RIders in Bree KO-ing Merry but then making off when challenged. The Black Breath then doesn't seem to work how it does in ROTK. Or the way the ROTK Nazgul don't seem all that much like the Black Riders at all. Or other things.

It's inconsistent and I like it.

Now of course, it is possible to come up with many explanations that cover and eliminate these inconsistencies.
I know.
I have.
So have many others.
It's fun.

And its probable that the Lore Enforcement Community don't like the suggestion that anything is inconsistent and are now waiting for me and my brother Jake after the show...Smile

But you know what: I don't mind. When I'm reading Book I the Black Riders work because they are so unknown and unpredictable. One turns up in Hobbiton and readers get quickly (faster than Frodo) that he's delayed too long and something nasty has come to get him. Tolkien has to get Gildor to slightly improbably refuse to explain what these Black Rders are (though he clearly recognises them from their description). Aragorn tells us a little more...

...but the main effect is that a reader never knows what's going to happen next. The Riders come, and they go, and 'those wraiths are still out there' and we're never sure what's going to happen next ...I think that's great.

Now of course Tolkien seems to have been making the Black Riders up as he drafted FOTR. So he didn't know what they were or what they could do either. But the published version is not his first draft, and he had plenty of opportunity to revise anything he didn't think was working in the light of the rest of the text. I think the Black Riders are left inconsistent because inconsistency works

OK and another thing:
What if Frodo had been captured by the Black Riders and forced to tag along as the tenth and shortest of the gang? Is this his theme tune?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 11, 9:33pm)


Meneldor
Doriath


Feb 12, 3:40am

Post #5 of 203 (9711 views)
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Variable Wraiths [In reply to] Can't Post

It's long been my understanding that the power and abilities of the 9 ebbed and flowed in relation to their master. At Weathertop, they were far far away from Sauron, who was still keeping his own power veiled. At the siege of Minas Tirith, they were much closer to Mordor, and the dark lord was putting forth his powers of sorcery and darkness, which made his servants stronger and more dangerous. To me, that's not inconsistent, that's perfectly reasonable progression.




They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 12, 11:02am

Post #6 of 203 (9609 views)
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Yes I think that's the 'standard' explanation - and probably the best [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's long been my understanding that the power and abilities of the 9 ebbed and flowed in relation to their master. At Weathertop, they were far far away from Sauron, who was still keeping his own power veiled. At the siege of Minas Tirith, they were much closer to Mordor, and the dark lord was putting forth his powers of sorcery and darkness, which made his servants stronger and more dangerous.


Yes I think that's the 'standard' explanation - and probably the best. Now here's a thing: Come to think of it I can't remember an particular passages of the text that explain this specifically or make it a strong inference. But maybe those do exist and someone either remembers them or would enjoy searching for them and reporting.
Alternatively, it would be quite interesting (to me at least) if this was 'lore' in the sense of shared assumptions in the fandom rather than 'lore' in the sense of something you can find source quotes to support.


If Sauron at HQ is assumed to transmit a magical power that is (perhaps) analagous to a radio signal and fades wih distance, then I do see that could be suggested not only as a reason the Black Riders are more powerful later in the story. It could also be advanced as an explanation of why they turn out not to be absolute slaves to Sauron's will at Weathertop and self-preservation can re-assert itself. Maybe that is what you had in mind? One could argue that the Weathertop attack is called off whereas the equivalent scene nearer to Mordor could only result in the camp over-run and the defendants massacred or captured. So maybe it does work. In either case the assumption is that Sauron regards his Nazgul as despensible given the importance of regaining the One Ring. Which wouldseem in character.
But then some new difficulties emerge. Sauron also has some sort of hold over his orcs, but I think it is far from clear how that works. I wrote about that back in the autumn covering some of the options.

And I'm sticking to a point that the tale does not need to make sense when people fridge-logic it to the ultimate degree (a tendency that goes back to the very beginning of LOTR fandom):

Quote
Dear Mr Hastings,

Thank you very much for your long letter. I am sorry that I have not the time to answer it, as fully as it deserves. You have at any rate paid me the compliment of taking me seriously; though I cannot avoid wondering whether it is not ‘too seriously’, or in the wrong directions. The tale is after all in the ultimate analysis a tale, a piece of literature, intended to have literary effect, and not real history. That the device adopted, that of giving its setting an historical air or feeling, and (an illusion of ?) three dimensions, is successful, seems shown by the fact that several correspondents have treated it in the same way–according to their different points of interest or knowledge: i.e. as if it were a report of ‘real’ times and places, which my ignorance or carelessness had misrepresented in places or failed to describe properly in others. Its economics, science, artefacts, religion, and philosophy are defective, or at least sketchy.

Letter 153 (in draft form To Peter Hastings, 1954)

["Tolkien Fandom: taking it ‘too seriously’, or in the wrong directions since 1954" - would make a good T-shirt]
[By "sketchy" Tolkien means the British and 20th Century meaning of the term - "like a sketch" (i.e. lacking in detail). Using it that way I've sometimes inadvertently amused my kids, to whom 'sketchy' has a newer meaning: something like 'morally dubious' Smile ]



And I can also see the idea that the WK thinks he has achieved his goal at Weathertop - maybe he's confident that Frodo is as good as undead, and all he needs to do is trail the hobbbits, and might as well keep his force intact for that and future tasks. But none of that turns out to be as easy as expected.

Yet another thought is about the nature of realism. Tolkien creates an absorbing world that looks consistent and complete. Of course it is not and never could be, and for myself I don't see any problem with that. But (I believe it was in some correspondence when he was working on the LOTR Appendices) I think Tolkien comments somewhere that the Appendices are useless if they are inconsistent, but that oddly enough real history is inconsistent and incomplete. So inconsistency would, arguably, be more realistic than total consistency.


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 12, 11:05am)


Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin

Feb 12, 11:33am

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I was wondering about something recently [In reply to] Can't Post

During the siege of Minas Tirith, could not the Nazgul have done what they did at Bree, use their sprit form to get through the physical walls of the city and cause chaos and misery inside? Or at least find out some secret entries and weakness?


Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin

Feb 12, 11:51am

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Well I must say [In reply to] Can't Post

This does sound a bit like having you're spiritual cake and eating it to me! He's kind of saying that their is a logic to this but then their isn't. or it works when it works but doesn't when it doesn't! I suppose its fine if you are one of the heroes when the provedence works in you're favour but if ;it doesn't such as Turin or Boromir it can be bad!


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 12, 2:48pm

Post #9 of 203 (9589 views)
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Spirit Form? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
During the siege of Minas Tirith, could not the Nazgul have done what they did at Bree, use their sprit form to get through the physical walls of the city and cause chaos and misery inside? Or at least find out some secret entries and weakness?



I do not believe that the Ringwraiths are incorporeal even when they are unclothed. They were able to enter Bree because of a corrupted gate warden not because they magically passed through walls.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 12, 5:00pm

Post #10 of 203 (9581 views)
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The Nature of the Witch-king [In reply to] Can't Post

My theory:
The Witch-king is a vampire, and so are all the Nazgûl.

This may sound unlikely at first, but the textual evidence goes with the idea surprisingly well and explains many things.

(I have an in-progress theory post on vampires on Tolkien on which I made some good advancement a while ago, but which turned out to be a major undertaking because there is so much material to cover. I think I probably should prioritize getting that theory in shape.)

Also, I think the Witch-king didn't actually want to kill Éowyn and would rather she had not intervened. This would have been why he chose to speak rather than attack immediately. He was hoping that Éowyn would back down so that he could let her live.

I think the Witch-king's Ring of Power may have been the Ring of Frost, hence his powers over winter. My theory is that all the Rings of Power had specialties like that.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 12, 5:53pm

Post #11 of 203 (9579 views)
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I have two reasons for not agreeing [In reply to] Can't Post

I have two reasons for not agreeing that Tolkien is being cakeist.

Firstly, I think there's a difference between a story that breaks down because of internal inconsisencies (or being incomprehensible or totally unbelievable) on the one had; and on a fictional world that can't cope with limitless scrutiny on the other. Tolkien expresses this much better than I could (of course!):


Quote
“Children are capable, of course, of literary belief, when the story-maker’s art is good enough to produce it. That state of mind has been called ‘willing suspension of disbelief’. But this does not seem to me a good description of what happens. What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful ‘sub-creator’. He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is ‘true’: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside. If you are obliged, by kindliness or circumstance, to stay, then disbelief must be suspended (or stifled), otherwise listening and looking would become intolerable. But this suspension of disbelief is a substitute for the genuine thing, a subterfuge we use when condescending to games or make-believe, or when trying (more or less willingly) to find what virtue we can in the work of an art that has for us failed.”
On Fairy-stories


So with the Nazgul, I feel confident that most of us would not be here if our reaction to reading LOTR had been "disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside." Tolkien's sory does hold up "a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is ‘true’: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside."

While I am "inside", there is something very believable about the Black Riders/Nazgul. Some idea that is consistent - or as I was trying to explain I am content that I can't explain them.

The correspondents Tolkien is talking about in Letter 153 were "outside" I think: the magic, or rather art, has failed for them because they are scrutinising Middle-earth...:


Quote
...according to their different points of interest or knowledge: i.e. as if it were a report of ‘real’ times and places, which my ignorance or carelessness had misrepresented in places or failed to describe properly in others. Its economics, science, artefacts, religion, and philosophy are defective, or at least sketchy.

Letter 153


So it's maybe unsurprising that the art has failed for them.

The second thing is that I infer Tolkien had had some very trying letters. One thing for someone to say they didn't like the story because they personally could not beleive in a world where [whatever]. Tolkien fully underestands this (in On Fairy-Stories he goes on to explain how he can't enjoy cricket purely as cricket, and so has to rely on some other source of interest such as wanting Oxford to beat Cambridge).


Nor does it seem that these letter-writers had been saying that they enjoyed thinking about the economics, science, artefacts, religion, and philosophy of Middle-earth. And nor do I think they had suggestions or queries.


I think they told him he'd 'done it wrong'.


Which I think Tolkien is quite right to point out is twaddle. Either as author he has the perogative to say what Middle-earth is like and he's correct about it; or everyone can interpret their own Middle-earth, in which case his letter-writers are absolutely correct about their interpretaton of Middle-earth, but are no more or less correct than Tolkien about some objective standard of Middle-earth, because none can now exist - it's all just interpretations then.

And that is why I find the Nazgul inconsistent when I am 'outside', but feel that it's not a fault or probelms because I ought to enjoy them from 'inside'.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 12, 5:59pm)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 12, 5:54pm

Post #12 of 203 (9572 views)
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I'm with Otaku on this. [In reply to] Can't Post

But it is a tricky subject. However, Merry couldn't have severed the W-K's knee tendon, especially with the effect it had on him, if he was entirely incorporeal.



Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 12, 5:57pm

Post #13 of 203 (9575 views)
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Cakeist. Why did I have to read that at lunchtime!? [In reply to] Can't Post

Meaning, I now can't read the rest of your post until I've eaten something (unhealthful). Shocked



Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Feb 12, 8:48pm

Post #14 of 203 (9539 views)
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Middle-earth Vampires [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My theory:
The Witch-king is a vampire, and so are all the Nazgûl.

This may sound unlikely at first, but the textual evidence goes with the idea surprisingly well and explains many things.

(I have an in-progress theory post on vampires on Tolkien on which I made some good advancement a while ago, but which turned out to be a major undertaking because there is so much material to cover. I think I probably should prioritize getting that theory in shape.)

Also, I think the Witch-king didn't actually want to kill Éowyn and would rather she had not intervened. This would have been why he chose to speak rather than attack immediately. He was hoping that Éowyn would back down so that he could let her live.

I think the Witch-king's Ring of Power may have been the Ring of Frost, hence his powers over winter. My theory is that all the Rings of Power had specialties like that.


Vampires do exist in Tolkien's Middle-earth, but they are Maiar, not undead mortal Men. We only know of one human-like Vampire and that was Thuringwethil, a messenger of Sauron during the First Age that could take the form of a vampire with an iron claw on each wing. She was slain either by the hound Huan or in the collapse of Sauron's fortress on Tol-in-Gaurhoth (the "Isle of Werewolves"). Sauron, himself, did take on the shape of a Vampire on at least one occasion, to escape Huan.

Tolkien's only other reference to Vampires was to the huge bats that covered the sky during the Battle of Five Armies and descended to feast on the fallen among the Men, Elves and Dwarves.

The Ringwraiths were sustained by their Rings and the will of Sauron. There is no evidence that they needed to feed on the blood or life force of Men or other beings. But go ahead and make your case.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 12, 10:15pm

Post #15 of 203 (9528 views)
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"You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. [In reply to] Can't Post

The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed."

Exactly. I've always been grateful to Tolkien for this explanation. It's simply not the same as the "willing suspension of disbelief," in which state I often find myself not only frustrated, but quite often bored. Finding myself "inside" a book without effort is one of the biggest complements I can pay it.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 12, 10:15pm)


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 12, 11:19pm

Post #16 of 203 (9517 views)
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Beware of Wizards bearing Cakes [In reply to] Can't Post

Wiz has a suspicious habit of doling out cakes here in the Rdg Room, and rumor has it that he even sings while he does it, something like:
"Three Cakes for the Elven-kings under the sky..."


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 12, 11:22pm

Post #17 of 203 (9511 views)
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The Concept of Vampires [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Vampires do exist in Tolkien's Middle-earth, but they are Maiar, not undead mortal Men. We only know of one human-like Vampire and that was Thuringwethil, a messenger of Sauron during the First Age that could take the form of a vampire with an iron claw on each wing. She was slain either by the hound Huan or in the collapse of Sauron's fortress on Tol-in-Gaurhoth (the "Isle of Werewolves"). Sauron, himself, did take on the shape of a Vampire on at least one occasion, to escape Huan.

Tolkien's only other reference to Vampires was to the huge bats that covered the sky during the Battle of Five Armies and descended to feast on the fallen among the Men, Elves and Dwarves.

The Ringwraiths were sustained by their Rings and the will of Sauron. There is no evidence that they needed to feed on the blood or life force of Men or other beings. But go ahead and make your case.


There is indeed evidence in Tolkien that the Nazgûl drink blood and are surprisingly traditional vampires, though the conclusion requires piecing together evidence from multiple places in the book. The idea is that something with the traits of a vampire (sunlight weakness, etc.) can be rightly called a vampire even if the word itself is never explicitly used in the source material.

I'm not sure how much I should get into it right now, as even the first draft for the main theory post isn't ready yet. The original "Gandalf the White = Saruman" was released in a badly rushed and sloppy state, and I don't want a repeat of that.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 12, 11:28pm

Post #18 of 203 (9514 views)
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I question the Black Riders while remaining in-story [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for making that distinction. I often think Tolkien invited such scientific scrutiny because he made such an airtight world, he sorta begs for it. In other works, I think readers know the fantasy is just fantasy, not an opus made during a 1/2 a lifetime where the author struggled to make sure the moon phases appeared correctly.

So, suspending my disbelief, I am genuinely curious (where have I heard that word?) why the Black Riders confidently attack Crickhollow, the Prancing Pony, and Weathertop yet crumble so easily when Aragorn challenges them, whereas they kept Gandalf pinned down all night. I think The Hunt for the Ring answers a lot of questions. I sorta wish it was jammed in a footnote in LOTR for those of us trying to put things together.


squire
Gondolin


Feb 12, 11:37pm

Post #19 of 203 (9514 views)
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Tolkien does support the idea that the Nazgul grow in power as Sauron's will is bent against Gondor [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this passage supports the "standard explanation", as you put it, for why the Nazgul seem relatively ineffective in Book I, compared to Book V.
The Nazgûl came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men’s flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air. More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war, but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death. - LR V.4, 'The Siege of Gondor' bold by squire
What's the difference? It's subtle, but imagine if the hobbits had heard such voices while in the Woody End - not feeling a shiver, but throwing themselves on the ground in suicidal despair, abandoning their quest right then and there.

Yet Tolkien is only turning the knob up, so to speak. Just as in Book I per Aragorn's advice, the Nazgul's main weapon is and always has been: fear. Not weapons, not horses or flying mounts, but pure fear.


squire online:
Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.

= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 12, 11:58pm

Post #20 of 203 (9515 views)
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And now I had to go and read that [In reply to] Can't Post

 at dinnertime.

Seven for the Dwarf Lords, on a baking stone.
None for mortal men, doomed to pie.
One for the Dark Lord, iced with brimstone.

In the oven baking, where the pastries rise.
One cake to rule them all,
One cake outshined them.
One cake to best them all and to the trash consign them.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 13, 12:01am)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 13, 12:03am

Post #21 of 203 (9492 views)
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Yes, to both. And [In reply to] Can't Post

a point well taken about fear as their chief weapon.



noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 13, 4:37pm

Post #22 of 203 (9367 views)
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Growing in power [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for providing the basis of the 'Standard Explanation'!

And certainly I agree: the "hobbit walking party" era hobbits would be unlikely to survive if they met the nazgul as they are later in the story. I suppose one part of this then is Tolkien having to provide more worthy opponents as our hobbit heroes gain experience.

Other stories do this via what TVTropes call the Sorting Algorithm of Evil: Villains will appear in strictly ascending order by menace.


Whether or not "turning up the knob" on the Black Riders appeals as an alternative (from the 'inside' and , I think it's interesting that Tolkien has another progression (or a leas change) going on. When Frodo watches the WK and his army depart for Gondor:

Quote
“Frodo waited, like a bird at the approach of a snake, unable to move. And as he waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. But great as the pressure was, he felt no inclination now to yield to it. He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king–not yet. There was no longer any answer to that command in his own will, dismayed by terror though it was, and he felt only the beating upon him of a great power from outside.”


A key bit there is one I remember being delighted by when you pointed it out to me in an earlier conversation, squire: that telling "not yet". Frodo is no longer at risk because of a trust in the Ring as a means of escape. The problem will now be the temptation to attempt mastery of it.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 13, 4:39pm

Post #23 of 203 (9365 views)
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Yes indeed! It usually turns out that... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the cake is a lie.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 13, 4:47pm

Post #24 of 203 (9372 views)
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Which [In reply to] Can't Post

It's fun that "Which king was the Witch King?" would be a perfectly reasonable question within Tolkien fandom. Smile

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 13, 5:21pm

Post #25 of 203 (9356 views)
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Tar-Atanamir [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's fun that "Which king was the Witch King?" would be a perfectly reasonable question within Tolkien fandom. Smile


This is not a theory original to me, but I remember having read a very convincing argument for how the Witch-king would be Tar-Atanamir.

This gives rise to another question: Which would have the better claim for the throne of Gondor, Aragorn or Tar-Atanamir?

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