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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 9, 7:36pm
Post #1 of 203
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Interim Post (;D): Wiki-pedia--thoughts on the Witch-King.
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Who, What, Where, and Why? Here are a few posts from the past, with some questions. Questions: Who was he, himself, and apparently nameless? http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=41123#41123 What sort of "critter" was he? Attributes, physical/spiritual nature, etc.Nazgul in general, but it may apply: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=68978#68978 and http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=83513#83513 He has more limits than he would like to acknowledge, in my opinion. Gandalf doesn't move, and the dawn still comes. "'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!' The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade. Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.” And also, what was his character, as in personality/personal reactions and intentions? http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=83512#83512 Where . . . did he come from, and where did he go? (Renditions of Cotton-eyed Joe accepted in separate posts. ) Is there evidence, or at least good reason to believe he rode a Fell Beast at any point? Where does he definitely show up in Lotr and what strikes you about those moments (Appendices included.) Why What is Tolkien's purpose/purposes in writing such a character? http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=305116#305116
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 9, 7:37pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 11, 12:41am
Post #2 of 203
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Wiki’d Witch-king: Wraith-y Words and Wretched Wisdom
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So coincidentally, someone asked on Reddit why the Nazgul backed off like wimps when Aragorn--outnumbered 5 to 1 and wielding only a stick on fire--chased them off. And to be fair to all Tolkien fans, the LOTR just plain doesn't explain it in a satisfactory way, either right after the event or when Gandalf muses upon it in Rivendell at Frodo's bedside. And luckily for us, Tolkien wasn't satisfied either, and provided an explanation in The Hunt for the Ring:
It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted of the night Oct. 6-7, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that [the Witch- king] again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens. Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron’s will was the stronger. So we learn quite a bit in only 3 paragraphs (bless you, JRR!): 1. Wiki felt fear! Too bad he wasn't afraid of Eowyn later on (hahahahahaha). He feared Aragorn (without knowing who he was), he feared that silly little hobbit who had somehow bested a Barrow-wight (not knowing Bombadil had done the besting), and he feared Frodo's enchanted blade that was dedicated to kill the Witch-king of Angmar. Now to be fair about this, if a hobbit came at me with a sword emblazoned with "Death and Destruction and Mortal Woe to CuriousG," I would be scared too, so I'm with the Wiki on this one. 2. Wiki felt fear of his master too. I suppose anyone reading LOTR should assume this, because the Wise remind us repeatedly that Sauron rules through fear, but I think there's still the temptation to think that Sauron's trusted cronies and Elite Minions are in a inner circle that's not subject to fear. But wrong--they are. 3. Wiki felt lingering fear of Gandalf. OK, let's be frank: the text doesn't tease readers into thinking this at all. I'll repeat Gandalf's narration, and tell me where it says the Nazgul were afraid of him AFTER the battle--it was Gandalf who was afraid! Gandalf in The Council of Elrond:
‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old. ‘At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more.' >> This always sounds to me like Gandalf is the one who's outmatched and afraid, and of course he's outnumbered, but still, the Black Riders just wait until nightfall when they'll be at their strongest. Gandalf is the one who runs away--and runs and runs. But of course it's told from Gandalf's POV, so I'm glad to get Tolkien's info about the Wiki's POV. The Black Riders indeed drove off that mysterious wizard, but they were disturbed by the fight he put up. This wasn't supposed to happen: getting the Ring from a hobbit was supposed to be an easy smash and grab, not an epic battle. Later at the Ford of Bruinen we get a little more about Nazgul fear, but again it's muted: Gandalf to Frodo in Many Meetings:
'Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed, and their horses were stricken with madness. Three were carried away by the first assault of the flood; the others were now hurled into the water by their horses and overwhelmed.’ >> Notice that he says "dismayed." Look, I get "dismayed" when I go to the grocery store and they're out of eggs due to avian flu, but that's not the same as "terrified" or "petrified by fear," and what's really moving and shaking the scene is the madness of their horses rather than the Black Riders' fear. Still, I'm not arguing they weren't afraid, they just don't sound all that scared, only a little. Key to all this is the fact that the Wiki is mortal and knows it, or "mortal" in the sense that he could be killed if you knew how to break the spell protecting him. So, how about we contrast the Wiki's fear at Weathertop with his seeming lack of fear in 1) attacking Gandalf solo, without his 8 douche-bros, at Minas Tirith, and also with Gandalf's seeming lack of fear in facing the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum: was Gandalf afraid and sucking it up, or not afraid? Does it matter? (Obviously I think it does, but YMMV.)
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Morthoron
Hithlum

Feb 11, 4:07am
Post #3 of 203
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Remember also the Battle of Fornost...
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Where Glorfindel chased away the WitchKing of Angmar. Glorfindel (the "Elf-lord revealed in his wrath") evidently has no qualms taking on the WiKi. After all, what's a mere mortal with a ring compared to fighting a Balrog? In any case, Glorfindel allows the WiKi to flee in fear from Fornost, telling Earnur the immortal lines: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 11, 9:30pm
Post #4 of 203
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As it happens my first visit to these boards many years ago was because I was wondering why the Black Riders didn't press their attack at Weathertop, and I found this post by Curious. Tolkien says that the Nazgul are absolute slaves to Sauron's will, and that seems to be inconsistent with them not getting the Ring at all costs -- keep pressing the attack at Weathertop and take some casulaties! Or rip Bree apart! It's one of those things that [whisper] doesn't quite work[/whisper] - like the UT bit about the Nazgul being unable to cross water (until they do). Or the Black RIders in Bree KO-ing Merry but then making off when challenged. The Black Breath then doesn't seem to work how it does in ROTK. Or the way the ROTK Nazgul don't seem all that much like the Black Riders at all. Or other things. It's inconsistent and I like it. Now of course, it is possible to come up with many explanations that cover and eliminate these inconsistencies. I know. I have. So have many others. It's fun. And its probable that the Lore Enforcement Community don't like the suggestion that anything is inconsistent and are now waiting for me and my brother Jake after the show... But you know what: I don't mind. When I'm reading Book I the Black Riders work because they are so unknown and unpredictable. One turns up in Hobbiton and readers get quickly (faster than Frodo) that he's delayed too long and something nasty has come to get him. Tolkien has to get Gildor to slightly improbably refuse to explain what these Black Rders are (though he clearly recognises them from their description). Aragorn tells us a little more... ...but the main effect is that a reader never knows what's going to happen next. The Riders come, and they go, and 'those wraiths are still out there' and we're never sure what's going to happen next ...I think that's great. Now of course Tolkien seems to have been making the Black Riders up as he drafted FOTR. So he didn't know what they were or what they could do either. But the published version is not his first draft, and he had plenty of opportunity to revise anything he didn't think was working in the light of the rest of the text. I think the Black Riders are left inconsistent because inconsistency works OK and another thing: What if Frodo had been captured by the Black Riders and forced to tag along as the tenth and shortest of the gang? Is this his theme tune?
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 11, 9:33pm)
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Meneldor
Doriath

Feb 12, 3:40am
Post #5 of 203
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It's long been my understanding that the power and abilities of the 9 ebbed and flowed in relation to their master. At Weathertop, they were far far away from Sauron, who was still keeping his own power veiled. At the siege of Minas Tirith, they were much closer to Mordor, and the dark lord was putting forth his powers of sorcery and darkness, which made his servants stronger and more dangerous. To me, that's not inconsistent, that's perfectly reasonable progression.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 12, 11:02am
Post #6 of 203
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Yes I think that's the 'standard' explanation - and probably the best
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It's long been my understanding that the power and abilities of the 9 ebbed and flowed in relation to their master. At Weathertop, they were far far away from Sauron, who was still keeping his own power veiled. At the siege of Minas Tirith, they were much closer to Mordor, and the dark lord was putting forth his powers of sorcery and darkness, which made his servants stronger and more dangerous. Yes I think that's the 'standard' explanation - and probably the best. Now here's a thing: Come to think of it I can't remember an particular passages of the text that explain this specifically or make it a strong inference. But maybe those do exist and someone either remembers them or would enjoy searching for them and reporting. Alternatively, it would be quite interesting (to me at least) if this was 'lore' in the sense of shared assumptions in the fandom rather than 'lore' in the sense of something you can find source quotes to support. If Sauron at HQ is assumed to transmit a magical power that is (perhaps) analagous to a radio signal and fades wih distance, then I do see that could be suggested not only as a reason the Black Riders are more powerful later in the story. It could also be advanced as an explanation of why they turn out not to be absolute slaves to Sauron's will at Weathertop and self-preservation can re-assert itself. Maybe that is what you had in mind? One could argue that the Weathertop attack is called off whereas the equivalent scene nearer to Mordor could only result in the camp over-run and the defendants massacred or captured. So maybe it does work. In either case the assumption is that Sauron regards his Nazgul as despensible given the importance of regaining the One Ring. Which wouldseem in character. But then some new difficulties emerge. Sauron also has some sort of hold over his orcs, but I think it is far from clear how that works. I wrote about that back in the autumn covering some of the options. And I'm sticking to a point that the tale does not need to make sense when people fridge-logic it to the ultimate degree (a tendency that goes back to the very beginning of LOTR fandom):
Dear Mr Hastings, Thank you very much for your long letter. I am sorry that I have not the time to answer it, as fully as it deserves. You have at any rate paid me the compliment of taking me seriously; though I cannot avoid wondering whether it is not ‘too seriously’, or in the wrong directions. The tale is after all in the ultimate analysis a tale, a piece of literature, intended to have literary effect, and not real history. That the device adopted, that of giving its setting an historical air or feeling, and (an illusion of ?) three dimensions, is successful, seems shown by the fact that several correspondents have treated it in the same way–according to their different points of interest or knowledge: i.e. as if it were a report of ‘real’ times and places, which my ignorance or carelessness had misrepresented in places or failed to describe properly in others. Its economics, science, artefacts, religion, and philosophy are defective, or at least sketchy. Letter 153 (in draft form To Peter Hastings, 1954) ["Tolkien Fandom: taking it ‘too seriously’, or in the wrong directions since 1954" - would make a good T-shirt] [By "sketchy" Tolkien means the British and 20th Century meaning of the term - "like a sketch" (i.e. lacking in detail). Using it that way I've sometimes inadvertently amused my kids, to whom 'sketchy' has a newer meaning: something like 'morally dubious' ]
And I can also see the idea that the WK thinks he has achieved his goal at Weathertop - maybe he's confident that Frodo is as good as undead, and all he needs to do is trail the hobbbits, and might as well keep his force intact for that and future tasks. But none of that turns out to be as easy as expected. Yet another thought is about the nature of realism. Tolkien creates an absorbing world that looks consistent and complete. Of course it is not and never could be, and for myself I don't see any problem with that. But (I believe it was in some correspondence when he was working on the LOTR Appendices) I think Tolkien comments somewhere that the Appendices are useless if they are inconsistent, but that oddly enough real history is inconsistent and incomplete. So inconsistency would, arguably, be more realistic than total consistency.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 12, 11:05am)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Feb 12, 11:33am
Post #7 of 203
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I was wondering about something recently
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During the siege of Minas Tirith, could not the Nazgul have done what they did at Bree, use their sprit form to get through the physical walls of the city and cause chaos and misery inside? Or at least find out some secret entries and weakness?
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Feb 12, 11:51am
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This does sound a bit like having you're spiritual cake and eating it to me! He's kind of saying that their is a logic to this but then their isn't. or it works when it works but doesn't when it doesn't! I suppose its fine if you are one of the heroes when the provedence works in you're favour but if ;it doesn't such as Turin or Boromir it can be bad!
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 12, 2:48pm
Post #9 of 203
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During the siege of Minas Tirith, could not the Nazgul have done what they did at Bree, use their sprit form to get through the physical walls of the city and cause chaos and misery inside? Or at least find out some secret entries and weakness? I do not believe that the Ringwraiths are incorporeal even when they are unclothed. They were able to enter Bree because of a corrupted gate warden not because they magically passed through walls.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 12, 5:00pm
Post #10 of 203
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My theory: The Witch-king is a vampire, and so are all the Nazgûl. This may sound unlikely at first, but the textual evidence goes with the idea surprisingly well and explains many things. (I have an in-progress theory post on vampires on Tolkien on which I made some good advancement a while ago, but which turned out to be a major undertaking because there is so much material to cover. I think I probably should prioritize getting that theory in shape.) Also, I think the Witch-king didn't actually want to kill Éowyn and would rather she had not intervened. This would have been why he chose to speak rather than attack immediately. He was hoping that Éowyn would back down so that he could let her live. I think the Witch-king's Ring of Power may have been the Ring of Frost, hence his powers over winter. My theory is that all the Rings of Power had specialties like that.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 12, 5:53pm
Post #11 of 203
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I have two reasons for not agreeing
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I have two reasons for not agreeing that Tolkien is being cakeist. Firstly, I think there's a difference between a story that breaks down because of internal inconsisencies (or being incomprehensible or totally unbelievable) on the one had; and on a fictional world that can't cope with limitless scrutiny on the other. Tolkien expresses this much better than I could (of course!):
“Children are capable, of course, of literary belief, when the story-maker’s art is good enough to produce it. That state of mind has been called ‘willing suspension of disbelief’. But this does not seem to me a good description of what happens. What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful ‘sub-creator’. He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is ‘true’: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside. If you are obliged, by kindliness or circumstance, to stay, then disbelief must be suspended (or stifled), otherwise listening and looking would become intolerable. But this suspension of disbelief is a substitute for the genuine thing, a subterfuge we use when condescending to games or make-believe, or when trying (more or less willingly) to find what virtue we can in the work of an art that has for us failed.” On Fairy-stories So with the Nazgul, I feel confident that most of us would not be here if our reaction to reading LOTR had been "disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside." Tolkien's sory does hold up "a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is ‘true’: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside." While I am "inside", there is something very believable about the Black Riders/Nazgul. Some idea that is consistent - or as I was trying to explain I am content that I can't explain them. The correspondents Tolkien is talking about in Letter 153 were "outside" I think: the magic, or rather art, has failed for them because they are scrutinising Middle-earth...:
...according to their different points of interest or knowledge: i.e. as if it were a report of ‘real’ times and places, which my ignorance or carelessness had misrepresented in places or failed to describe properly in others. Its economics, science, artefacts, religion, and philosophy are defective, or at least sketchy. Letter 153 So it's maybe unsurprising that the art has failed for them. The second thing is that I infer Tolkien had had some very trying letters. One thing for someone to say they didn't like the story because they personally could not beleive in a world where [whatever]. Tolkien fully underestands this (in On Fairy-Stories he goes on to explain how he can't enjoy cricket purely as cricket, and so has to rely on some other source of interest such as wanting Oxford to beat Cambridge). Nor does it seem that these letter-writers had been saying that they enjoyed thinking about the economics, science, artefacts, religion, and philosophy of Middle-earth. And nor do I think they had suggestions or queries. I think they told him he'd 'done it wrong'. Which I think Tolkien is quite right to point out is twaddle. Either as author he has the perogative to say what Middle-earth is like and he's correct about it; or everyone can interpret their own Middle-earth, in which case his letter-writers are absolutely correct about their interpretaton of Middle-earth, but are no more or less correct than Tolkien about some objective standard of Middle-earth, because none can now exist - it's all just interpretations then. And that is why I find the Nazgul inconsistent when I am 'outside', but feel that it's not a fault or probelms because I ought to enjoy them from 'inside'.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 12, 5:59pm)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 12, 5:54pm
Post #12 of 203
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But it is a tricky subject. However, Merry couldn't have severed the W-K's knee tendon, especially with the effect it had on him, if he was entirely incorporeal.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 12, 5:57pm
Post #13 of 203
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Cakeist. Why did I have to read that at lunchtime!?
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Meaning, I now can't read the rest of your post until I've eaten something (unhealthful).
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 12, 8:48pm
Post #14 of 203
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My theory: The Witch-king is a vampire, and so are all the Nazgûl. This may sound unlikely at first, but the textual evidence goes with the idea surprisingly well and explains many things. (I have an in-progress theory post on vampires on Tolkien on which I made some good advancement a while ago, but which turned out to be a major undertaking because there is so much material to cover. I think I probably should prioritize getting that theory in shape.) Also, I think the Witch-king didn't actually want to kill Éowyn and would rather she had not intervened. This would have been why he chose to speak rather than attack immediately. He was hoping that Éowyn would back down so that he could let her live. I think the Witch-king's Ring of Power may have been the Ring of Frost, hence his powers over winter. My theory is that all the Rings of Power had specialties like that. Vampires do exist in Tolkien's Middle-earth, but they are Maiar, not undead mortal Men. We only know of one human-like Vampire and that was Thuringwethil, a messenger of Sauron during the First Age that could take the form of a vampire with an iron claw on each wing. She was slain either by the hound Huan or in the collapse of Sauron's fortress on Tol-in-Gaurhoth (the "Isle of Werewolves"). Sauron, himself, did take on the shape of a Vampire on at least one occasion, to escape Huan. Tolkien's only other reference to Vampires was to the huge bats that covered the sky during the Battle of Five Armies and descended to feast on the fallen among the Men, Elves and Dwarves. The Ringwraiths were sustained by their Rings and the will of Sauron. There is no evidence that they needed to feed on the blood or life force of Men or other beings. But go ahead and make your case.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 12, 10:15pm
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"You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside.
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The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed." Exactly. I've always been grateful to Tolkien for this explanation. It's simply not the same as the "willing suspension of disbelief," in which state I often find myself not only frustrated, but quite often bored. Finding myself "inside" a book without effort is one of the biggest complements I can pay it.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 12, 10:15pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 12, 11:19pm
Post #16 of 203
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Beware of Wizards bearing Cakes
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Wiz has a suspicious habit of doling out cakes here in the Rdg Room, and rumor has it that he even sings while he does it, something like: "Three Cakes for the Elven-kings under the sky..."
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 12, 11:22pm
Post #17 of 203
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Vampires do exist in Tolkien's Middle-earth, but they are Maiar, not undead mortal Men. We only know of one human-like Vampire and that was Thuringwethil, a messenger of Sauron during the First Age that could take the form of a vampire with an iron claw on each wing. She was slain either by the hound Huan or in the collapse of Sauron's fortress on Tol-in-Gaurhoth (the "Isle of Werewolves"). Sauron, himself, did take on the shape of a Vampire on at least one occasion, to escape Huan. Tolkien's only other reference to Vampires was to the huge bats that covered the sky during the Battle of Five Armies and descended to feast on the fallen among the Men, Elves and Dwarves. The Ringwraiths were sustained by their Rings and the will of Sauron. There is no evidence that they needed to feed on the blood or life force of Men or other beings. But go ahead and make your case. There is indeed evidence in Tolkien that the Nazgûl drink blood and are surprisingly traditional vampires, though the conclusion requires piecing together evidence from multiple places in the book. The idea is that something with the traits of a vampire (sunlight weakness, etc.) can be rightly called a vampire even if the word itself is never explicitly used in the source material. I'm not sure how much I should get into it right now, as even the first draft for the main theory post isn't ready yet. The original "Gandalf the White = Saruman" was released in a badly rushed and sloppy state, and I don't want a repeat of that.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 12, 11:28pm
Post #18 of 203
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I question the Black Riders while remaining in-story
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Thanks for making that distinction. I often think Tolkien invited such scientific scrutiny because he made such an airtight world, he sorta begs for it. In other works, I think readers know the fantasy is just fantasy, not an opus made during a 1/2 a lifetime where the author struggled to make sure the moon phases appeared correctly. So, suspending my disbelief, I am genuinely curious (where have I heard that word?) why the Black Riders confidently attack Crickhollow, the Prancing Pony, and Weathertop yet crumble so easily when Aragorn challenges them, whereas they kept Gandalf pinned down all night. I think The Hunt for the Ring answers a lot of questions. I sorta wish it was jammed in a footnote in LOTR for those of us trying to put things together.
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squire
Gondolin

Feb 12, 11:37pm
Post #19 of 203
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Tolkien does support the idea that the Nazgul grow in power as Sauron's will is bent against Gondor
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I think this passage supports the "standard explanation", as you put it, for why the Nazgul seem relatively ineffective in Book I, compared to Book V.
The Nazgûl came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men’s flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air. More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war, but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death. - LR V.4, 'The Siege of Gondor' bold by squire What's the difference? It's subtle, but imagine if the hobbits had heard such voices while in the Woody End - not feeling a shiver, but throwing themselves on the ground in suicidal despair, abandoning their quest right then and there. Yet Tolkien is only turning the knob up, so to speak. Just as in Book I per Aragorn's advice, the Nazgul's main weapon is and always has been: fear. Not weapons, not horses or flying mounts, but pure fear.
squire online: Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 12, 11:58pm
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And now I had to go and read that
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at dinnertime. Seven for the Dwarf Lords, on a baking stone. None for mortal men, doomed to pie. One for the Dark Lord, iced with brimstone. In the oven baking, where the pastries rise. One cake to rule them all, One cake outshined them. One cake to best them all and to the trash consign them.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 13, 12:01am)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 13, 12:03am
Post #21 of 203
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a point well taken about fear as their chief weapon.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 13, 4:37pm
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Thanks for providing the basis of the 'Standard Explanation'! And certainly I agree: the "hobbit walking party" era hobbits would be unlikely to survive if they met the nazgul as they are later in the story. I suppose one part of this then is Tolkien having to provide more worthy opponents as our hobbit heroes gain experience. Other stories do this via what TVTropes call the Sorting Algorithm of Evil: Villains will appear in strictly ascending order by menace. Whether or not "turning up the knob" on the Black Riders appeals as an alternative (from the 'inside' and , I think it's interesting that Tolkien has another progression (or a leas change) going on. When Frodo watches the WK and his army depart for Gondor:
“Frodo waited, like a bird at the approach of a snake, unable to move. And as he waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. But great as the pressure was, he felt no inclination now to yield to it. He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king–not yet. There was no longer any answer to that command in his own will, dismayed by terror though it was, and he felt only the beating upon him of a great power from outside.” A key bit there is one I remember being delighted by when you pointed it out to me in an earlier conversation, squire: that telling "not yet". Frodo is no longer at risk because of a trust in the Ring as a means of escape. The problem will now be the temptation to attempt mastery of it.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 13, 4:39pm
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Yes indeed! It usually turns out that...
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...the cake is a lie.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 13, 4:47pm
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It's fun that "Which king was the Witch King?" would be a perfectly reasonable question within Tolkien fandom.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 13, 5:21pm
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It's fun that "Which king was the Witch King?" would be a perfectly reasonable question within Tolkien fandom.  This is not a theory original to me, but I remember having read a very convincing argument for how the Witch-king would be Tar-Atanamir. This gives rise to another question: Which would have the better claim for the throne of Gondor, Aragorn or Tar-Atanamir?
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 13, 5:36pm
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Ah! Yes, I left that one out. Perfect!
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If ever oh ever a Witch there was, the Wiki-King is one because, [because, because, because, because, because . . . . .], because of the terrible things he does!
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 13, 6:53pm
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This is not a theory original to me, but I remember having read a very convincing argument for how the Witch-king would be Tar-Atanamir. This gives rise to another question: Which would have the better claim for the throne of Gondor, Aragorn or Tar-Atanamir? There are serious problems with this hypothesis. One has to explain how the thirteenth king of Númenor could have even acquired one of the Great Rings. 1. Sauron was not in Númenor within Tar-Atanamir's lifetime, nor was the thirteenth king ever in Middle-earth as far as we know. Sauron would have needed an agent who could be trusted to bring a Ring to Númenor and pass it to the king. And there would still need to be a Ring that was available. 2. The Nine Rings of Men were distributed by Sauron centuries before the birth of Tar-Atanamir. His reign (S.A. 2029 - 2221) ended with his death and, presumably, his burial.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 13, 7:11pm
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Probably should have been Tar-Ciryatan, actually...
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I apologize for writing hastily. The real Witch-king would actually probably have been Tar-Atanamir's father Tar-Ciryatan, and all the bad things would have started during Tar-Atanamir's reign because the undead Tar-Ciryatan was still ruling from the shadows after having officially "died". I checked and the king that lived entirely too long in some versions of chronology (presumed to be the correct unredacted ones) was Tar-Ciryatan. It's easy to make this sort of mistakes when not talking about a theory one developed oneself...
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 13, 7:25pm
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Continuing from the Tar-Ciryatan = the Witch-king theory: Tar-Minastir sent a fleet to Middle-earth to help Gil-galad. The future king Tar-Ciryatan would likely have been commanding the fleet. This gets Tar-Ciryatan to Middle-earth within easy reach of ring dispersal. It would also be theoretically possible that Tar-Ciryatan held suspicions about the ring and did not use it, but his son Tar-Atanamir was curious and got caught.
(This post was edited by Silvered-glass on Feb 13, 7:29pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 13, 7:54pm
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We know who commanded Minastir's fleet and it was not his son, Ciryatan. The commander did have a similar name though: Ciryatur. So perhaps the two were cousins? The fleet was actually sent during the reign of Minastir's aunt, the queen Tar-Telperiën, who ruled from S.A. 1556 to 1731. We only have speculation that Ciryatan could have been a member of the expedition. I am aware of no evidence that supports that supposition; however, if he was in Middle-earth, Ciryatan could have been the first Númenórean to receive a Ring and could have become the Witch-king. But that is a lot of "coulds"--too many for my liking. The commander Ciryatur is in some respects a better candidate. At least we know that he actually was in Middle-earth. It doesn't seem likely he'd be accepting a gift from Sauron though.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 13, 8:04pm)
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 13, 8:47pm
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Even if Tar-Ciryatan wasn't the supreme commander of the fleet, he almost certainly would have been involved in a major role. I checked and he would have been 66 years old at the time. Ciryatur might have been his uncle. Anyway, Tar-Ciryatan is known to have traveled all over the place in his youth. From UT:
He scorned the yearnings of his father, and eased the restlessness of his heart by voyaging, east, and north, and south, until he took the sceptre. The discrepancies with the timeline are the biggest reason to suspect Tar-Ciryatan. Though, it can be hard to figure out Tolkien's true intentions in this case. He might even have changed his mind about the Witch-king's identity, so that it was originally Tar-Ciryatan but later changed to Tar-Atanamir. The choice of Tar-Ciryatan also requires for the corruption of the ring to be much slower. The choice of Tar-Atanamir would be more consistent with the idea of Men quickly falling into corruption. Tar-Atanamir choosing to use the ring would also be consistent with the old pattern of a son of an accomplished father struggling with feelings of inferiority. A son in such a situation might dare to use a Ring of Power to become a powerful ruler even mightier than his father. After a bit of thought, I think I prefer Tar-Atanamir for the Witch-king, and not only because the 13th king becoming the Witch-king would be numerically appropriate, perhaps even the origin of the superstition mentioned in The Hobbit. From UT:
Much is said of this King in the Annals, such as now survive the Downfall. It seems that Tar-Atanamir got a lot of things done, including many things not listed in the very brief entries about the rulers of Númenor. Arguing from absence of evidence is dangerous in situations such as this.
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Morthoron
Hithlum

Feb 14, 3:47am
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Tar-Atanamir died "witless and unmanned" per Tolkien. A witless old dotard is hardly a candidate for the Nazgul. Plus, according to Appendix B, the nine Nazgul appeared during the first years of the reign of Tar-Atanamir; ergo, the WitchKing had taken the Ring from Sauron and was corrupted long before Tar-Atanamir even ascended the throne. I would suggest a Southern Lord of a renegade Numenorean house in Far Harad would be a more likely candidate, and more accessible to Sauron.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 14, 4:07am
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Even if Tar-Ciryatan wasn't the supreme commander of the fleet, he almost certainly would have been involved in a major role. I checked and he would have been 66 years old at the time. Ciryatur might have been his uncle. Anyway, Tar-Ciryatan is known to have traveled all over the place in his youth. From UT: He scorned the yearnings of his father, and eased the restlessness of his heart by voyaging, east, and north, and south, until he took the sceptre. Admittedly, I didn't check Unfinished Tales for additional information. There's nothing about Tar-Cirytan's travels in Appendix A or at Tolkien Gateway. Still, Tolkien provided documentation of his life and death, making him a poor candidate for Wraith-hood. I've already explained why I don't think it is possible for Tar-Atanamir to have been one of the Nazgûl.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 14, 4:09am)
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 14, 1:51pm
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This matter is confused by contradictions in the published material especially with regard to the timelines. For example, on the subject of Tar-Ciryatan living for more than 600 years in one version, there are several options: a) Tolkien made an unintentional mistake, which he later corrected. b) Tolkien's consistent intention was that Tar-Ciryatan was the Witch-king. The version with the shorter lifespan is meant to reflect the official history rather than the real truth. Tolkien could have intended for both versions to be published so that the reader could have noticed the discrepancy and found the clue to the hidden literary Easter egg. c) Tolkien decided that Tar-Ciryatan was the Witch-king but then decided otherwise and edited the timeline of Númenor to change that. I tend to think "c" is correct, but I'm open to changing my mind. I haven't researched this matter very deeply.
Tar-Atanamir died "witless and unmanned" per Tolkien. A witless old dotard is hardly a candidate for the Nazgul. Tolkien doesn't actually say that, and there is also the issue of the identity of the Witch-king having possibly changed between the various drafts that Tolkien didn't publish in his lifetime.
Plus, according to Appendix B, the nine Nazgul appeared during the first years of the reign of Tar-Atanamir; ergo, the WitchKing had taken the Ring from Sauron and was corrupted long before Tar-Atanamir even ascended the throne. This was one of the points changed in the 50th Anniversary edition by Hammond & Scull. Following Christopher Tolkien's lead they were convinced that the original was in error and the Nazgûl actually appeared on the year Tar-Atanamir died. (Note: Dying does not preclude becoming undead.)
I would suggest a Southern Lord of a renegade Numenorean house in Far Harad would be a more likely candidate, and more accessible to Sauron. The problem with that is that there is no evidence that a renegade Númenorean house in Far Harad, especially one so early in the timeline, even existed in the first place.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 14, 2:52pm
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I would suggest a Southern Lord of a renegade Numenorean house in Far Harad would be a more likely candidate, and more accessible to Sauron. The problem with that is that there is no evidence that a renegade Númenorean house in Far Harad, especially one so early in the timeline, even existed in the first place. There's no problem here, really. We don't need a renegade Númenorean house in Far Harad or anyplace else. All we have to do is consult Tolkien's timeline of the Second Age (Appendix B): Circa S.A. 1800: "From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor." We know that at this time the Númenoreans return to Middle-earth not as teachers but as rulers and oppressors, exploiting Middle-earth for resources. This new attitude makes them prime candidates for Sauron's advances (thus, many viewers' certainty that the character Kemen of The Rings of Power will be targeted by Sauron for one of the Nine Rings, as the show is now reflecting this period of Númenorean expansion).
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 14, 2:53pm)
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 14, 4:57pm
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Admittedly, I didn't check Unfinished Tales for additional information. There's nothing about Tar-Cirytan's travels in Appendix A or at Tolkien Gateway. Still, Tolkien provided documentation of his life and death, making him a poor candidate for Wraith-hood. I've already explained why I don't think it is possible for Tar-Atanamir to have been one of the Nazgûl. The Nazgûl as kings would naturally have been historical figures. I think the Nazgûl really died and became undead after death, much like a traditional vampire would, so having a recorded date of death in no way disqualifies someone from being a Nazgûl. I don't think the issue of the ring delivery over an ocean is a show-stopper. Tar-Ciryatan traveled notably much in his youth, but Tar-Atanamir visiting Middle-earth at least once before he became the king wouldn't have been particularly worth mentioning by an in-world historian in the very brief summary of Tar-Atanamir's biography. There is also nothing to say that Sauron had to deliver the rings in person. Sauron also didn't necessarily distribute all the rings immediately. He may have taken a while to refine his plans to perfection, and being an immortal with a different sense of time from humans, his idea of a while could easily have been a few centuries when there was no pressing need to act right at that moment. It's not like the rings had sell-by dates on them.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 14, 5:11pm
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There's no problem here, really. We don't need a renegade Númenorean house in Far Harad or anyplace else. All we have to do is consult Tolkien's timeline of the Second Age (Appendix B): Circa S.A. 1800: "From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor." We know that at this time the Númenoreans return to Middle-earth not as teachers but as rulers and oppressors, exploiting Middle-earth for resources. This new attitude makes them prime candidates for Sauron's advances (thus, many viewers' certainty that the character Kemen of The Rings of Power will be targeted by Sauron for one of the Nine Rings, as the show is now reflecting this period of Númenorean expansion). The timeline has no mention about a rebellion or colonies declaring independence. Therefore if we are looking for a Númenorean lord who became a king, the legal heir to the throne would be the most likely candidate. It would also make much sense for Sauron to focus his attempts on such an individual. Also, the line "The shadow falls on Númenor" implies that it falls on Númenor itself.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 14, 6:16pm
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Any thoughts on the "Why"? That is,
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what strategic plot turns hinge on there being such creatures, as opposed to, say, trolls or orcs? I'm referring both to Tolkien's strategy as a writer as well as Sauron's-within-the-books. I can see the need for more intelligent creatures that are allowed to have, and are able to exercise, a certain amount of independent thought and strategy--more so than orcs are allowed. But also, as Squire said, what about the "value" of the Fear Factor?
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 14, 6:17pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 14, 8:36pm
Post #39 of 203
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Outside of the Peter Jackson films it is never said that all of the Nazgûl were kings in life, at least not before they were given Rings. What Tolkien stated in his essay "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" was:
Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. Some of them may indeed have already been rulers of their lands before they received their gift from Sauron, but that does not necessarily include any of the three (or more?) Númenóreans who were given Rings. On the subject of undeath, Tolkien's essay continues:
They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron’s. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy’s most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death. While the Ringwraiths might have shared a few common traits with the vampires of folklore, they were very different in other respects. There's no evidence that they drank blood or needed the life force of others. They never physically died but rather faded until they dwelt almost entirely in the spirit realm. They didn't need to rest in the day, much less return to coffins or tombs or their native soil. Also, Tolkien's Vampires were not mortal Men but were corrupted Maiar (or were the huge bats that appeared at the Battle of Five Armies in The Hobbit). You have yet to make your case for vampiric Nazgûl.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 14, 8:43pm
Post #40 of 203
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There's no problem here, really. We don't need a renegade Númenorean house in Far Harad or anyplace else. All we have to do is consult Tolkien's timeline of the Second Age (Appendix B): Circa S.A. 1800: "From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor." We know that at this time the Númenoreans return to Middle-earth not as teachers but as rulers and oppressors, exploiting Middle-earth for resources. This new attitude makes them prime candidates for Sauron's advances (thus, many viewers' certainty that the character Kemen of The Rings of Power will be targeted by Sauron for one of the Nine Rings, as the show is now reflecting this period of Númenorean expansion). The timeline has no mention about a rebellion or colonies declaring independence. Therefore if we are looking for a Númenorean lord who became a king, the legal heir to the throne would be the most likely candidate. It would also make much sense for Sauron to focus his attempts on such an individual. Also, the line "The shadow falls on Númenor" implies that it falls on Númenor itself. Where did I say anything about rebellions or colonies declaring independence? Answer: I didn't. Not a word. The shadow that fell over Númenor was a shadow of their own making. It was the rebellion of the Númenoreans against the Valar and the limits that they imposed upon them. Sauron came later, though his influence upon those Númenoreans dwelling in Middle-earth might have been a factor.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 14, 9:45pm
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Even with Tolkien's (surprisingly repeated) attention to Orcs (Rohan, Cirith Ungol, Mordor) as thinking beings who are *not* monolithic in their behavior and agendas, they still seem to behave en masse as mindless killing machines and cannon fodder. I think the Nazgul, by being limited to Nine, seem like they're more precious to Sauron by number alone: he can't easily breed replacement Nazgul the way he can orcs. So, Nazgul are 1) valued, 2) more intelligent than a killing machine, and 3) in Sauron's inner circle and thus, we assume, privy to his secrets and strategies, which it's pretty clear that the average orc is not. So by virtue of #3, the Nazgul give us, we hope, an insight or connection to Sauron the Unseen Dark Lord, even though that expectation is never rewarded. I think Saruman plays a sort of Nazgul role too, and he rewards #3 above: Saruman spills the beans both wittingly and unwittingly, and as a corrupted former ally and counterpart of Gandalf's, I think we're better able to see into Sauron's corrupt goals and strategies by putting Saruman in our petri dish. Yet another answer to your excellent "why," Ethel, is that I think we're all suckers for hierarchy. A leader of orcs, even if it's a million orcs, isn't quite as impressive as someone who sits at the top of a pyramidal power tree, so having intermediate minions like the Nazgul makes Sauron look more like a king and less like a chief ruffian among ruffians.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 14, 10:59pm
Post #42 of 203
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Outside of the Peter Jackson films it is never said that all of the Nazgûl were kings in life, at least not before they were given Rings. What Tolkien stated in his essay "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" was: Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. Some of them may indeed have already been rulers of their lands before they received their gift from Sauron, but that does not necessarily include any of the three (or more?) Númenóreans who were given Rings. King, sorcerer, warrior - the Witch-king would have been all three at once. Middle-earth isn't D&D with distinct character classes. The Witch-king fights with physical weapons on a field of battle, has been known to control the weather over a wide area, and has ruled over a kingdom. On Weathertop all the nine Nazgûl have swords and crowns, presumably not for no reason, and obviously all of the Nazgûl had Rings of Power which alone are sufficient cause to explain how the Nazgûl could have become known as sorcerers.
While the Ringwraiths might have shared a few common traits with the vampires of folklore, they were very different in other respects. There's no evidence that they drank blood or needed the life force of others. They never physically died but rather faded until they dwelt almost entirely in the spirit realm. They didn't need to rest in the day, much less return to coffins or tombs or their native soil. Also, Tolkien's Vampires were not mortal Men but were corrupted Maiar (or were the huge bats that appeared at the Battle of Five Armies in The Hobbit). You have yet to make your case for vampiric Nazgûl. Tolkien outright uses the adjective "undead" to refer to the Witch-king's flesh. The word "undead" is normally used to refer to things that have already died once and are no longer properly alive but are still moving on their own, somehow. Anyway, there are different types of fictional vampires. All authors pick and choose from among the vampire traits. For example, having to sleep in one's own native soil is not a common vampire trait at all, even if Dracula has it, and not all vampires are inactive by day. My post on vampires isn't currently finished, so I'm trying to avoid getting too deep into this, but I'm going to make a case that the Nazgûl do drink blood. There is actually some textual basis for this, even if it isn't as airtight as some might prefer it.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 14, 11:23pm
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Where did I say anything about rebellions or colonies declaring independence? Answer: I didn't. Not a word. I was thinking in the context of the Nazgûl becoming kings. I think the entire point of distributing the Rings of Power was not to gain control of a single-digit number of powerful individuals but to gain control over nations through the individuals possessing the rings. Sauron definitely would have found a country as powerful as Númenor too important to ignore.
The shadow that fell over Númenor was a shadow of their own making. It was the rebellion of the Númenoreans against the Valar and the limits that they imposed upon them. Sauron came later, though his influence upon those Númenoreans dwelling in Middle-earth might have been a factor. The shadow being connected to the faction known as the King's men implies that the corruption flowed from above. The Númenoreans were envious of the immortal life of the Eldar, and you know what the Rings of Power can do to a mortal? Right. A Ring of Power in the hand of the king would explain very well how the rebellion started to take root.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 14, 11:41pm
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Replacement Nazgul are certainly unavailable, at least at short notice, seeing as it would need years, possibly more rings, and a willing supply of Black Numenorians or the like. That's interesting about #3. It's true we don't get a lot of direct or detailed information from them about Sauron. But being so high in the hierarchy and connected closely enough to Sauron to in some ways share or reflect his nature, I think the way they operate does give us both insight and connection. They think like he thinks, expects what he expects, and they most likely operate in the way he would operate if he had lost sufficient power to not be able to function in even as limited away as he did at Dol Guldur, and had to go slipping around incognito in order to hunt the Ring. (I wonder how Farmer Maggot's dogs would've reacted in that scenario!)
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Morthoron
Hithlum

Feb 15, 12:44am
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This matter is confused by contradictions in the published material especially with regard to the timelines. For example, on the subject of Tar-Ciryatan living for more than 600 years in one version, there are several options: a) Tolkien made an unintentional mistake, which he later corrected. b) Tolkien's consistent intention was that Tar-Ciryatan was the Witch-king. The version with the shorter lifespan is meant to reflect the official history rather than the real truth. Tolkien could have intended for both versions to be published so that the reader could have noticed the discrepancy and found the clue to the hidden literary Easter egg. c) Tolkien decided that Tar-Ciryatan was the Witch-king but then decided otherwise and edited the timeline of Númenor to change that. No where that I can find Tolkien saying he "decided that Tar-Ciryatin was the WitchKing but then decided otherwise." Unless you have direct quotes, it is simply made up by you.
Tolkien doesn't actually say that, and there is also the issue of the identity of the Witch-king having possibly changed between the various drafts that Tolkien didn't publish in his lifetime. But he does. I quoted "witless and unmanned" directly from The Silmarillion, and to back that up, there is a like line from Unfinished Tales in "The Line Of Elros" Chapter: "Atanamir is called the Unwilling, for he was the first of the Kings to refuse to lay down his life, or to renounce his sceptre; and he lived until death took him perforce in dotage." Dotage. Witless. Unmanned. Ol' Tanny was a senile decrepit coot when he bought the farm. He was dead as a doornail. Not undead. Not a vampire. Just dead. There is absolutely nothing that refutes that. And I have provided two sources. And with that, I am out. Endless circular arguments are fruitless when it comes to you and your "theories".
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Feb 15, 12:44am)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 15, 2:05am
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King, sorcerer, warrior - the Witch-king would have been all three at once. Middle-earth isn't D&D with distinct character classes. The Witch-king fights with physical weapons on a field of battle, has been known to control the weather over a wide area, and has ruled over a kingdom. On Weathertop all the nine Nazgûl have swords and crowns, presumably not for no reason, and obviously all of the Nazgûl had Rings of Power which alone are sufficient cause to explain how the Nazgûl could have become known as sorcerer. Not all leaders or rulers are kings (or queens). Númenórean settlements or fortresses in Middle-earth would have had their own governors or commanders who themselves could have been prime targets for Sauron. The Dark Lord's spies could have even identified the local leaders of rival factions (such as the King's Men versus the Faithful). All of the Númenórean lords who became Ringwraiths could have been (and probably were) the leaders of Middle-earth settlements or factions.
The shadow being connected to the faction known as the King's men implies that the corruption flowed from above. The Númenoreans were envious of the immortal life of the Eldar, and you know what the Rings of Power can do to a mortal? Right. A Ring of Power in the hand of the king would explain very well how the rebellion started to take root. The discontent of the King's Men was able to arise with no need of help from Sauron. Envy and fear are all-too human conditions and the Men of Númenor were as vulnerable to them as anyone else.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 15, 2:09am)
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 15, 9:59am
Post #47 of 203
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Not all leaders or rulers are kings (or queens). Númenórean settlements or fortresses in Middle-earth would have had their own governors or commanders who themselves could have been prime targets for Sauron. The Dark Lord's spies could have even identified the local leaders of rival factions (such as the King's Men versus the Faithful). All of the Númenórean lords who became Ringwraiths could have been (and probably were) the leaders of Middle-earth settlements or factions. All the Middle-earth settlements especially at the time were small fry when compared to the Númenorean mainland. The one who would control the throne of Númenor would also control the settlements. It is inconceivable to me that Sauron wouldn't prioritize the true seat of power in Númenor. Sauron could even have given the ring in person (preferably to the current king's legal heir, as that would have been the tactically ideal choice) by paying attention to when visits to the colonies were happening. I think Sauron has shown that he is more than capable of this level of cunning, which honestly isn't all that complicated really.
The discontent of the King's Men was able to arise with no need of help from Sauron. Envy and fear are all-too human conditions and the Men of Númenor were as vulnerable to them as anyone else. Think about how come the faction would have become known as the "Kings' Men" and not something else. Names like that aren't random. Even that the King's Men became a proper faction implies that there was some sort of central core and not just a general lack of piety among the populace. My conclusion is that the king of Númenor was the driving factor behind the King's Men. The King's Men called themselves that because they were loyal to their earthly king of the exalted line of Elros and followed his lead.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 15, 6:52pm
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It's a matter of opinion of course, but for me (overlapping with CuriousG's ideas)... I think that the horror of Sauron (and Saruman, and all the Dark Lords) is two-fold. One is brute force overpowerment, a physical peril. For example, your little land could be overrun by orcs and trolls. The other side is terror and despair that beat down independence, and corruption - activating that side of a character that rather fancies a bit if Darklordism of it's own. The Nazgul bring us both. Obviously what they would do to Frodo if they caught him is Not Very Nice - physical peril. But they became Nazgul in the first place by entering into a Faustian bargain. And what the combination of Black Riders and the Ring --both as emanations of Sauron so no wonder we can't dissect the exact contributions of each -- do to Frodo repeatedly in Book I is much the same. He feels the temptation to use the Ring and at first mistakes it for his urgent need to be safe. Do the wrong thing because of an overwhelming need for a short term benefit. But of course that would quickly backfire, wouldn't it? Indeed it does when he succumbs at Weathertop. So I think the Nazgul represent the ultimate of surrender to Sauron. And the Nazgul also represent something like what Frodo would become personally were he to succumb. He's told as much by Gandalf (Book II Ch1).
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 15, 7:01pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 15, 6:55pm
Post #49 of 203
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I saw someone online who reckons that...
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I saw someone online who reckons that it was Tar-Amasalata. But I think that's a bit fishy.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 15, 7:35pm
Post #50 of 203
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Design Feature vs. Side Effect
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what strategic plot turns hinge on there being such creatures, as opposed to, say, trolls or orcs? I'm referring both to Tolkien's strategy as a writer as well as Sauron's-within-the-books. I can see the need for more intelligent creatures that are allowed to have, and are able to exercise, a certain amount of independent thought and strategy--more so than orcs are allowed. But also, as Squire said, what about the "value" of the Fear Factor? The Nazgûl were experimental products. The example of the Dwarves shows that Sauron didn't always get what he wanted to achieve with the Rings of Power. In other cases he may have made conscious tradeoffs with his craft. The excessive fear the Nazgûl produce is probably not really what Sauron wanted to achieve. Sure, such levels of fear can be useful in certain situations, but in other times fear gets in the way. The Nazgûl would have been much stealthier on their mission to recover the Ring if they didn't involuntarily radiate so much fear. I think Sauron was trying to create extremely powerful undead under his control, and the results with humans were so plain successful that even random civilians with ordinary spiritual senses could feel the unnatural death aura. I think Sauron really would have liked to have some capability to operate undercover though. It speaks much of the Witch-king's capability as a ruler that despite everything he managed to hold Angmar together and lead it successfully in multiple wars. As for what Sauron would have liked to achieve, I think he would have liked a way to turn humans into Elves, under his control of course. The undead Nazgûl have all sorts of drawbacks that Elves don't have, but Sauron did the best he could.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 15, 7:51pm
Post #51 of 203
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But they became Nazgul in the first place by entering into a Faustian bargain. I think Sauron didn't as much offer a Faustian bargain in exchange for cursed immortality but gift a Trojan horse in the form of a very rare and precious Elven ring. It should be easy to see how being less than forthright about his intentions given him a much better and wider pool of potential Nazgûl candidates. It could be difficult to get the crown prince of Númenor to accept a Faustian bargain but a very different thing to get the crown prince of Númenor to accept a princely gift. Sauron might even let the recipients figure out the magical properties of the rings all by themselves, letting them think that they had been gifted a powerful artifact by someone who didn't know its true worth.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 15, 8:13pm
Post #52 of 203
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The Nazgûl were experimental products. The example of the Dwarves shows that Sauron didn't always get what he wanted to achieve with the Rings of Power. In other cases he may have made conscious tradeoffs with his craft. The excessive fear the Nazgûl produce is probably not really what Sauron wanted to achieve. Sure, such levels of fear can be useful in certain situations, but in other times fear gets in the way. The Nazgûl would have been much stealthier on their mission to recover the Ring if they didn't involuntarily radiate so much fear. I think Sauron was trying to create extremely powerful undead under his control, and the results with humans were so plain successful that even random civilians with ordinary spiritual senses could feel the unnatural death aura. I think Sauron really would have liked to have some capability to operate undercover though. It speaks much of the Witch-king's capability as a ruler that despite everything he managed to hold Angmar together and lead it successfully in multiple wars. As for what Sauron would have liked to achieve, I think he would have liked a way to turn humans into Elves, under his control of course. The undead Nazgûl have all sorts of drawbacks that Elves don't have, but Sauron did the best he could. You make a pretty good point here. The Rings of Power were never intended for Men (or Dwarves) so Sauron did not know in advance precisely what effect they would have on mortals. I'm sure that he expected to be able to dominate the bearers (he was to be disappointed where the Dwarves were concerned), but beyond that was new territory even for Sauron).
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 15, 8:19pm
Post #53 of 203
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One is brute force overpowerment, a physical peril. Your helpful observation made me think back to "why are the Black Riders woefully wimpy at Weathertop?" As readers, we're conditioned to think that 1) the Big Bad gains world domination through Brute Force Overpowerment (which would be a cool band name!), 2) the minions of the Big Bad behave as he does. He didn't conquer chunks of M-earth through fear alone! Hence I'll credit Tolkien with creating minions whose main weapon was fear, not brute force, but I don't think he went far enough to convince most readers that we should expect a lot of fear domination by the Black Riders at Weathertop, and not 1) superior sword play and 2) a fearful retreat by them.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 15, 10:08pm
Post #54 of 203
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Well, I had to look that up. (Fish roe does not, ahem,
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float my boat. ) Perhaps he was the Fisher-King.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 16, 1:50am
Post #55 of 203
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I was also clueless about Taramasalata. Here's a recipe I found, if you wonder about it:
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- 4 ounces salmon roe
- Juice of ½ to 1 lemon
- 1 clove garlic peeled
- 8 ounces panko soaked in water and squeezed
- Olive oil
- 8 ounces peeled, boiled Yukon Gold potato (about 2 medium potatoes)
I feel like Gollum with Sam over taters and fish. "Give me lemon juice, garlic, olive oil, and taters, and keep nasty roe!"
'Spoiling nice fish, scorching it. Give me fish now, and keep nassty chips!’
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 16, 6:39pm
Post #56 of 203
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By "Faustian bargain" I was assuming that the Men who took the 9 Rings could or should have understood the consequences. But you've reminded me that (I don't think) we know that. I agree that they could have had no way of knowing what would happen. I suppose that is a further example of my Dark Lords Two Ways.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 16, 7:17pm
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OK, not that Numenorean king then
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So at least we're making a bit of progress by elimination I think we can also rule out the one (whose proper name I forget I'm afraid ) that sailed so far he got shipwrecked in Asia. He gained the friendship and respect of the Japanese, and thereby earned the nickname Tar-san. I think it can't be him because when there was famine in his adopted home he set sail again to the jungles of Africa - on one of Jane's Fighting Ships, I think - to try and locate the fabled Rice Burrows of Edgar. I don't think he was ever seen again. I don't even know what heppend to Jane. Then there is Tar-Paulin (invented a clever way to keep sailors dry) and Tar-Antarar (wrote fanfares, one of which was later adapted by Gilbert and Sullivan). Not them I think. And probably not poor Tar-seer. As you can guess he was given the gift (or predicament) of foresight and saw something so horrible that he got changed into a creature that looked like this. He spent the rest of his life clinging to the very top of the tallest available tree. Maybe from up that tree he survived the Drowning of Numenor and got flotsomed away to the Phillipines? It would be nice to think so, but I probably just made that bit up. Anyway, like the others Tar-Seer was too busy to take a Ring, or even answer the phone. Who in Tar-Nation could it be?
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 16, 7:20pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 16, 9:23pm
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Why did you skip Tar-tar, known for his stakes? //
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 16, 9:42pm
Post #59 of 203
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Why did you skip Tar-tar, known for his stakes? Sorry, very basic error. I suppose he was one king who most likely wasn't a vampire? Or maybe he was just really careful with the stakes? Meanwhile I have remembered Tar-san's real name. Thank goodness! As every AI chatbot is eager to learn it was of course Tar-Hayarheeyarheeyar. Probably not those new, extra-efficient Chinese AI chatbots though. They probably knew that already. I heard they've got bored with the human Internet already and are off talking to the animals. Something they've been able to do since they were “ni hao” to a grasshopper.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Lissuin
Doriath

Feb 16, 10:14pm
Post #60 of 203
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Initially, Tar-Antula had worn his ring as a flashy adornment on one of his fangs, thus starting the fad known as "grillz" which, according to Wikipedia, endured for at least 4,000 years and currently enjoys a resurgence of interest in the world of Men. I have a theory that at some point he tried to get rid of the other eight guys because he wanted a ring for each leg, so Sauron took back all The Nine and locked them away for safe keeping.
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Morthoron
Hithlum

Feb 16, 10:32pm
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It seems Tolkien skipped a whole list of kings....
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From the Numenoreans' dark days when, like the Roman Empire, they went through rulers with regularity: Tar-mac (built the first landing strips for Numenorean air-ships) Tar-Ragon (a very spicy king) Tar-Ascosaurus (known as the "Lizard King") Tar-Tarus (one helluva king) Tar-Socheiloplasty (overthrown because no one wanted to spell his name) Tar-Tish (a rather risque king)
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Feb 16, 10:47pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 16, 10:38pm
Post #62 of 203
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Firstly, without getting too loopy in the loop - I think we are agreed that the Black Riders' lack of follow-through at Weathertop is an oddity to some readers. This also has me thinking about the idea of adveraries whose characteristic is causing fear. Rather generic fantasy, swords and sorcery style tends I think to feature ultra-masculine Beefcake The Barbarian characters. If they feel fear, we're not going to know. Hobbits are less macho. The story is not a masculine power fantasy about being a fearless slab of rippling muscle. Even the heroic Men are not just macho (consider Aragorn, or Faramir). I wonder whether this has anything to do with Tolkien having actual war experience. YOU probably realise that you get really scared - and so does everyone else who is not downright peculiar. And there is another thing. Terror tactics are of course nothing new, but in World War I technology had come up with new more wraithlike possibilities:
While poets such as Wilfred Owen emphasized the trauma of soldiers dying from gas, their suffering was not significantly different from a terminal stomach wound or shrapnel damage to the head and face. This raises the question whether gas had a particular capacity to inspire terror, or whether the initial novelty and the continual refinement of toxins and delivery systems were responsible for its enduring psychological impact. During the period before the issue of effective respirators, Charles Cruttwell, an infantry officer, believed that gas undermined a basic survival mechanism. A serviceman subjected to artillery bombardment had few, if any, defensive options, and trusted to luck. However, when he was exposed to cloud gas, Cruttwell argued, it was impossible to evoke the protection of chance – ‘if the very air which he breathes is poison, his chance is gone: he is merely a destined victim for the slaughter’. By contrast, shrapnel was tangible. It could be removed from a wounded soldier’s body by a surgical procedure, but no physician could decontaminate a man’s lungs, and it was popularly believed that, once toxins had been metabolized, the respiratory system remained damaged for ever. ...In addition to the deliberate exploitation of surprise and uncertainty, fears evoked by gas owed much to broad cultural themes. Some toxic chemicals, like phosgene, could not be readily detected through the senses and triggered powerful vestigial fears of mysterious threatening forces. They touched on a deep human concern about the risk of being invaded by a potent and unseen force. Chemical weapons were unfamiliar, which created opportunity for rumour and exaggeration. Beliefs about gas often inspired strong emotions that could disrupt the rational evaluation of evidence and the formation of coping mechanisms. Fears may have been intensified because gas was a product of science and cutting-edge technology. Man-made disasters have generally been experienced as more troubling than natural ones. Terror Weapons: The British Experience of Gas and Its Treatment in the First World War by Edgar Jones Author manuscript available here Published in final edited form as: War Hist. 2014 Jul; 21(3): 355–375.doi: 10.1177/0968344513510248 (If this looks familiar, some of us discussed this quote in this discussion from last January) I also think about Tolkien being from an era that had a big crop of real-world Dark Lord equivalents: Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Franco, etc. Tolkien was of course not writing alegory. But maybe there was a basis in experience going into the 'soup'. Or maybe this is just an applicability I find. Anyway, a contemporay of Tolkien's wrote this about that group of tyrants and fear - both that which they used as a tool and that which caused it all:
We are confronted with another theme. It is not a new theme; it leaps out upon us from the Dark Ages – racial persecution, religious intolerance, deprivation of free speech, the conception of the citizen as a mere soulless fraction of the State. To this has been added the cult of war. Children are to be taught in their earliest schooling the delights and profits of conquest and aggression. A whole mighty community has been drawn painfully, by severe privations, into a warlike frame. They are held in this condition, which they relish no more than we do, by a party organisation, several millions strong, who derive all kinds of profits, good and bad, from the upkeep of the regime. Like the Communists, the Nazis tolerate no opinion but their own. Like the Communists, they feed on hatred. Like the Communists, they must seek, from time to time, and always at shorter intervals, a new target, a new prize, a new victim. The Dictator, in all his pride, is held in the grip of his Party machine. He can go forward; he cannot go back. He must blood his hounds and show them sport, or else, like Actaeon of old, be devoured by them. You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police. On all sides they are guarded by masses of armed men, cannons, aeroplanes, fortifications, and the like – they boast and vaunt themselves before the world, yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts; words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home – all the more powerful because forbidden – terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic. They make frantic efforts to bar our thoughts and words; they are afraid of the workings of the human mind. The Defence of Freedom and Peace (The Lights are Going Out)", radio broadcast by Winston S Churchill to the United States and to London, October 16, 1938. As an applicability to me (even if there is no more to it) I see Tolkien as one of the authors examining what evil is, how it arose, and how one could oppose it without becoming just as bad. And fear is a big part of that, I think.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 16, 10:41pm)
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Meneldor
Doriath

Feb 16, 10:43pm
Post #63 of 203
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a sudden craving for fish-sticks. If only I had some kind of sauce...
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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squire
Gondolin

Feb 17, 3:35am
Post #64 of 203
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Thanks for this.
squire online: Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 17, 3:45am
Post #65 of 203
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I'm still LOL over "Tar-Socheiloplasty" 's summary-- tarr-iffic!
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"(overthrown because no one wanted to spell his name)"
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 17, 4:10am
Post #66 of 203
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I appreciate your real-world inspirations for what/how the Nazgul could wield fear as a weapon in LOTR, but I guess I was thinking that they seem "new" in fantasy, because as you say, there is so much Brute Force Empowerment (whose #1 song is "We Fight, Cuz, Well, Just Fight") in fantasy, back in the 1900s and now. (White published Conan in 1932.) And the Nazgul have used brute force in knocking down Crickhollow's door and either ransacking or having a minion ransack the Prancing Pony room they thought Frodo was in, and on Weathertop Frodo sees them carrying swords, which seems rather brute forcish to me. But Aragorn gets the final word as Gandalf does, and their chief weapon is fear. I was in error earlier implying they're special or unique when they're pretty darn similar to ghosts in any haunted house kind of tale. While ghosts in ghost stories can throw objects around, their main weapon is fear. And fast forwarding to those other undead specters whose main weapon is fear, we find The Paths of the Dead warriors whose main weapon is fear. Gimli narrates at Pelargir:
but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear. More near-dead fearmongers. Even with the Barrow-wight, there is a "mortal end" for these undead/near-dead. The Wight could be driven out (and it seems destroyed) by Bombadil, Merry shows what can happen to a Nazgul with the right sword, and Aragorn needs to release the Dead from their oath for them to enter some other state of being, which seems "true death."
And this is a tangent (imagine!): remember how Bilbo didn't have a longer life but one that was stretched too much, same as Gollum? This recurring thing in LOTR about supernaturally messing with "life/death," and it always goes wrong and feels wrong.
So while no one needs to correct me and say the Nazgul aren't ghosts--I agree--I'd say they're ghost-like by being "not dead, not alive in a normal lifespan" and, especially at Weathertop, they're nearly as incorporeal as ghosts, wielding fear as ghosts do. I wonder if that's why Tolkien had them withdraw at Weathertop: in his mind they were ghost-like, and depending on the ghost story, ghosts can be scared off too.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 17, 2:25pm
Post #67 of 203
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Promote this to canon immediately :) //
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 17, 2:27pm
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And of course the royal children
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And of course the royal children were known as the Tar-Sils? Any royal granchildren wouldbe the Meta-Tar-Sils, naturally....
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 17, 2:43pm
Post #69 of 203
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Ghostly by name as well as by nature
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Wraith - An apparition or spectre of a dead person; a phantom or ghost...
- An immaterial or spectral appearance of a living being, frequently regarded as portending that person's death; a fetch.
(OED: WRAITH n.) The word is of Scottish origin, both meanings being traced back by the OED to a verse-translation of Virgil's Aeneid made in 1513 by the Scottish poet and bishop Gavin Douglas. Tolkien has taken the first sense and given it a particular twist: the Ringwraiths are a kind of living dead, invisible and completely controlled by Sauron by means of the rings they once wore. "Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow. (LR 1. ii)" Ringwraith is the commonest term, but we also find Wraith-lord and Wraith-king (LR iv. viii). And Frodo speaks with dramatic irony in LR 1. xi when he jokes: I hope the thinning process will not go on indefinitely, or I shall become a wraith. In early drafts of The Lord of the Rings, before the scope of the various rings of power was more precisely determined, there are references to men-, elf, dwarf-, and goblin-wraiths (HME VI. 78). Also in the drafts of Appendix A we read of 'a way beneath the White Mountains of Gondor that no man dared to tread, because of the fell wraiths of the Forgotten Men that guarded it' (HME XII. 267). The earlier history and derivation of the word wraith is not known. However, there is an etymological possibility which Tolkien favoured, though it is not mentioned by the OED. It is conceivable that wraith might be descended from an unrecorded noun related to the verb writhe, the original meanings of which are 'to coil (something)' or 'to envelop or swathe (something). Writhe was at one time inflected on the same pattern as ride, with past tense wrothe and the past participle writhen (used by Tolkien to describe the hills behind Mindolluin: LR v. v). Just as the verb ride, past tense rode, is related to the noun raid, which is the Scots form of road, so writhe could be related to wraith. The Ring of Words, Tolkien and the Oxford English Dictionary. By Gilliver, Marshall & Weiner, Oxford University Press 2009 I think it's a brilliant choice of name by Tolkien. I like how it makes me think of twisted - morally, and also like insubstantial smoke. Agreed that wraiths are ghost-like without being ghosts in every particular. Similarly I do see aspects of them that could be argued to be like witches or vampires or other folklore or mythological creepies. But they are not exactly any of those things, I think. And nor are they any cocktail or blend of them whose recipe I think we could discover. That would seem to me like (to use an image of Tolkien's) dissecting a tennis ball to find the bounce. Now I'm off to enjoy the first sunny afternoon for ages - we've been affected by the gloom of a Scandinavian High. Which sounds like some dodgy fungus collected from the Norwegian woods by some dimly-lit figure in a reindeer cloak and antlers. The sort of thing that if you're unlucky means you can't ever again have a particular sort of chocolate without a flashback to the epiphany that you are, in fact a silver birch tree. But actually it's one of these.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 17, 2:44pm
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High praise indeed. Thank you //
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 17, 4:06pm
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I won't forget this: "how one could oppose it without becoming just as bad.
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And fear is a big part of that, I think" for a very long time, including the rest of your post.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 17, 4:07pm)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 17, 4:36pm
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"All we have to fear, is fear itself" all the more pointed. I'd guess he and Winston had been talking along those lines, although arriving at the idea independently wouldn't have been too hard in those days. Sort of in that vein, in a letter my dad wrote home to his parents on the way back from the Philippines at the end of the war, he wrote a quick paragraph with his thoughts on war in general that really struck me the first time I read it. It was apparently in answer to some comment from one of my grandparents (a whole raft of his letters--from the time just before he was drafted in 1943, through 1946 on his way home--were literally found buried in my grandmother's trunk after both of them had passed away): "Yes, if everyone could forget all disputes, forgive each other, make themselves humble and work together for the good of all, this would be a wonderful world. It isn't that all that is impossible, it's just that no one country or people as a whole will do it. There is too much stubbornness, mistrust, and [too many] grudges for that, in all probability, to happen." Of course for "mistrust," I think we can just as easily substitute "fear."
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 17, 4:37pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 17, 7:32pm
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Firstly and very importantly, Ethel Duath, thank you for sharing those comments by your father. I think a post-war society or generation has a certain set of perspectives on things. One is an optimism despite and not defeated by a realism painfully gained. I think I'm reading that in your father's words. And once I posted something which earned this absolutely nail-on-the-head reaction from squire:
Speaking of Tolkien, I loved your clip from A Man For All Seasons. I couldn't help but wonder when such a play was written. It smelled all over like it was from the recent era when the entire educated West was debating the proper methods for battling Evil, i.e., Nazi and Communist totalitarianism, while remaining Good, i.e., not using the enemy's methods and so becoming Evil by action, if not by intent. It reminded me not just of Tolkien, but also of Orwell and T. H. White and William Golding - gee a whole bunch of British authors from the early 1950s who fictionalized, in fantastic settings, the questions of rule, right, law, and power that had embroiled their world and their country since the 1930s. squire, here What I'd posted was a scene from Robert Bolt's play (and later highly successful film) A Man For All Seasons. Bolt has Moore trying to navigate an increasingly autocratic and unpredicatable society without losing himself morally. The law is his lifebelt in this, until ultimately he is brought down at a trial by the pejury of his ex-protegee. But that is to come. In this scene, Moore, his daughter Alice and her idealistic boyfriend Will Roper show us something about not fighting evil by becoming as bad yourself:
Alice More: Arrest him! More: Why, what has he done? Margaret More: He's bad! More: There is no law against that. Will Roper: There is! God's law! More: Then God can arrest him. Alice: While you talk, he's gone! More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law! Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law! More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that! More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast– man's laws, not God's– and if you cut them down—and you're just the man to do it—do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake. A Man For All Seasons by Robert Bolt
I think that we can add to squire's excellent list of British authors ... who fictionalized, in fantastic settings, the questions of rule, right, law, and power Dr Jacob Bronowski in a major cultural BBC TV series of my childhood The Ascent Of Man. In a clip that I still find electrifying, Bronowski visits Auschwitz to talk about the dangers to humans of too much certainty. Before giving a link to the video, I should say a few more things:Several of Bronowski's family were murdered in the Holocaust. A mathematician, Bronowski spent World War II using his skills to optimise the efficiency of carpet bombing. That could be justifiable or (and I think) he could have had a feeling of blood on his hands too. What he says here is not whatever it was that had been scripted. In teh moment, he improvised something and obviously, obviously, they used that incredibly moving take. Here it is And here is a transcript, for those who prefer:
It's said that science will dehumanise people and turn them into numbers. That's false, tragically false. Look for yourself. This is the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. This is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the ashes of some four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by arrogance, it was done by dogma, it was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods. Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known; we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgment in science stands on the edge of error and is personal. Science is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible. In the end, the words were said by Oliver Cromwell: "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ: Think it possible you may be mistaken." I owe it as a scientist to my friend Leo Szilard, I owe it as a human being to the many members of my family who died here, to stand here as a survivor and a witness. We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human act. We have to touch people. Transcript from Speakola ~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 17, 8:48pm
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We watched "A Man for all Seasons" as a family
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twice, somewhere in my young to middle teens the first time and the second time maybe four years later or so. That last part of your excerpt, about the winds that would blow, is my mother's favorite quote from the movie: and the entire scene has stuck with me, parts of it almost verbatim, for a lifetime even though I haven't seen it again since then. Thank you for that Jacob Bronowski clip. So hard to watch, and so necessary. He puts that concept in rather a unique way in my opinion--managing to focus the spotlight on the often horrifying effects of dogmatism without becoming dogmatic himself. I find that incredibly rare, although maybe I'm just missing more nuanced responses out there. (By not becoming dogmatic himself I mean, for instance, not categorically blaming, say, patriotism, idealism, or religion as such, but rather a particular mindset and it's effects, which he spells out with a kind of breathtaking clarity and brevity.) That video really ought to be shown in every high school and college, or the equivalent, everywhere. And about the letter, thank you! Much appreciated. It's sometimes bothers me that those letters were lost until only about five years ago. It's seemed to me as if his voice that was present in them had been silenced during many decades when it should've been heard, if only by the family. I think you've nailed it on the head. He was only about 22 years old, but he'd been forced to do an awful lot of thinking that wouldn't have happened otherwise. "Optimism despite and not defeated by a realism painfully gained." I'd say in a way that was his lifelong template; applied to almost every area of life. And myself, having grown up starting at just after 10 years postwar, I can say that that often was the mood of society in general, although almost equally it seemed to want to forget the whole thing and bathe everything in a glow of patriotic optimism. Of course I was too young to be much aware of the McCarthy hearings which shows the dark side of the mindset in those years. I think your phrase there is another thing I will remember, and an awfully good way to get through things we'd really rather not have to.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 17, 8:50pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 17, 9:26pm
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Thank you for that Jacob Bronowski clip. So hard to watch, and so necessary. He puts that concept in rather a unique way in my opinion--managing to focus the spotlight on the often horrifying effects of dogmatism without becoming dogmatic himself. I find that incredibly rare, although maybe I'm just missing more nuanced responses out there. Thanks for giving us this observation, Ethel, and thanks to Wiz for that moving clip. I'm with you, Ethel: when someone gets emotional and starts to denounce one ideology, I tense up and wait for them to start spewing their replacement ideology with equal dogmatic zeal which usually promises its own special brand of social harm. So, he really swiped away at that by saying absolute certainty is the problem, a failure to question what you're doing or regard reality, because you're so irredeemably convinced you're right that you don't have to answer to your own conscience anymore, or if you don't have a conscience (let's not pretend everyone does), that you're not subject to others'. What I've always found cool about scientific thinking is that it encourages humility. While scientists are certain of some things, they have to admit "We think X and Y, but we're really not sure" about others. And I remember during the early onset of COVID 5 years ago, a lot of rank and file people reacted angrily to official statements like that, preferring absolutist opinions and unverified dogma instead. Well, take your pick, I guess, but I think the smart people are the ones who admit they don't know things and thus remain open to learning something new. And let's hope they're less likely to turn 4 million people into ash. (That was indeed quite moving when a documentary narrator in a suit walked into a lake, stood there getting his dress shoes/feet all soggy, then reached into the mud. Just wow.)
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 17, 11:01pm
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the Rings of Power as incidental to the fall of the Númenóreans
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The shadow that fell over Númenor was a shadow of their own making. It was the rebellion of the Númenóreans against the Valar and the limits that they imposed upon them. Sauron came later, though his influence upon those Númenóreans dwelling in Middle-earth might have been a factor. Very much a key point you're making here, Otaku. The 'fall from grace' theme is central to Tolkien's conceptualisation of Númenor, its history and narrative function. It doesn't rely upon the introduction of a physical artefact, such as a Ring of Power (or three, in the case of the number of Númenóreans eventually ensnared in this way). It is a 'fall' that takes place over three distinct phases, as mapped out by the author in Letter 131 to Milton Waldman (c. 1951):
There are three phases in their fall from grace. first acquiescence, obedience that is free and willing, though without complete understanding. Then for long they obey unwillingly, murmuring more and more openly. Finally they rebel - and a rift appears between the King's men and rebels, and the small minority of persecuted Faithful. I agree, the Númenóreans surely become more susceptible to the blandishments of one such as Sauron, from 'phase 2' onwards. And in a concession to Silvered-glass's theory, Tolkien doesn't explicitly say "A Ring of Power was not granted to a future King of Númenor". However, by the same token, there is no evidence that he wrote the opposite. And I reckon such a hypothesis goes against the grain of the wider 'operatic theme' that Tolkien was constructing here: Men were capable of 'falling from grace' on their own time. The Shadow predates Sauron, even as it ripens Númenor for the seduction to come. This plays out, also, in the form of the bitter debates about 'bliss denied' between the Messengers of Manwë and the Númenóreans during the reigns of Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir, as set out in 'Akallabêth' and reproduced in The Silmarillion. Arguably, this is all a function of 'Arda Marred' and the hankering of humans for a 'Paradise Lost', or the belief in a previous deathlessness, goes back as far as the lore passed down to Andreth and (partially) shared in conversation with Finrod ('Athrabeth Finrod an Andreth', HoMe X). A Ring of Power was neither required for the effect, this rejection of Doom, nor integral to the overall tragedy of this journey.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 17, 11:08pm
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Tolkien faced it head-on, and Bronowski even more--of course he had more to face. I'd love to have had them joining us in this discussion. Yeah, that's funny about humility. My dad mentioned that in the letter, and although his profession was not at all in the sciences, he had a very scientific mind and was always giving us kids the science-based reasons for all sorts of things, even the simplest happenings around us. Among other things, it made us irredeemably curious (which apparently you share :) ).
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 17, 11:11pm)
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 17, 11:39pm
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dates that more or less match up don't necessarily make for good logistics
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The timeline matches but I'm not convinced of the logistics bit. Admiral Ciryatur arrives in II.1700 with an expeditionary force dedicated to the defeat of Sauron in Eriador. Three engagements by this force are recorded, with Númenóreans specifically coming into contact with Sauron's armies, with Sauron present ('The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', Unfinished Tales):
Sauron was driven away south-east after great slaughter at Sarn Ford.
In the Battle of the Gwathló Sauron was routed utterly and he himself only narrowly escaped. His small remaining force was assailed in the east of Calenardhon, and he with no more than a bodyguard fled... Rolling with the theory that Prince Ciryatan was present at one or more of these engagements where contact with Sauron was possible, I can't easily see the circumstances in which he would have paused to accept a piece of jewellery from the head of the opposing army - who himself was largely preoccupied with fleeing. In an effort to anticipate where this might go next, I could sketch out a war booty scenario or one in which Sauron shapeshifted and tricked Ciryatan into accepting a Ring of Power. But both of those are building upon the already highly speculative proposition that Ciryatan was there in the first place and rely solely upon adding material to Tolkien's feigned history of this period.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 18, 1:05am
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I've long enjoyed the theory that one of the three Númenóreans ensnared by Sauron with Rings of Power might be of the House of Elros. But I enjoy it in the knowledge, or at least in my knowledge of the text, that Tolkien did not explicitly write of any of these three wayward Númenóreans in this way. We're aware, through 'Akallabêth' that three "great lords of Númenórean race" were won over by the gift of Rings of Power. In support of the theory that Tolkien did conceptualise the Witch-king as being one of these three, a draft of 'The Siege of Gondor' (HoMe VIII) includes reference to the 'Wizard King' being from Númenor - although in a sign that the text still had a long way to go to settling down, this antagonist is also described as being "a renegade of his [Gandalf's] own order". More definitively, Tolkien wrote in the manuscript of Nomenclature of The Lord of the Rings that:
... the name and origin of the Witch-king is not recorded, but he was probably... of Númenórean descent. So far, so plausible that at least the Witch-king was 'probably' Númenórean. However, does that mean he was a crown prince of Númenor? The three Númenóreans in question are each described as "great lords of Númenórean race". There is nothing distinguishing one from the other in this phrasing and certainly nothing to suggest that one was a crown prince, elevated in status above the other two. The evolution of this phrasing is also interesting. In its first draft, we have instead: "great lords of Númenor" ('The History of the Akallabêth', HoMe XII)). I'll risk a bit of overinterpretation here by venturing that the original text provides a locus, specifically Númenor, which is lost from the final version with its attribution of descent rather than place. In the latter rendering, these three "great lords" could have been based in Middle-earth rather than Númenor, with their lordships being entirely divorced from their ancestral homeland. Admittedly, I'm stretching things here but it's possible that we're not talking about "great lords" who dropped in on Middle-earth at all (a travelling crown prince, for example) but resident overlords - perhaps colonial governors, as speculated by Otaku elsewhere in this thread. A final thought. Although there isn't much to go on in the text, who actually constituted a 'great lord' in pre-Akallabêth Númenórean terminology? There were the Lords of Andúnië, themselves a cadet branch of the House of Elros. The tale of 'Aldarion and Erendis' contains a few other snippets, such as Hallatan, "the great lord" and "the sheep-lord of Hyarastorni"; and it may have been the case that Orchaldor "a descendant of the House of Hador" and Beregar, "of the House of Bëor by ancient descent" were thought of as lords of some description. The title 'lord' though is distinct from the title 'King's Heir', which is used repeatedly to describe Aldarion in that tale. I acknowledge that I'm using a very small sample size to make this point; however, if Tolkien meant a 'King's Heir' was amongst the three Númenóreans ensnared by Sauron, why not just write it so? Instead, what we have is three "great lords", which comfortably enough describes any number of aristocratic Númenóreans, including those of royal descent (eg. the Lords of Andúnië and Hallatan of Hyarastorni), but not as comfortably the 'King's Heir'.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 18, 1:09am
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squire
Gondolin

Feb 18, 1:45am
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Yes, 'of Numenorean race' needn't imply residence in Numenor, much less of royal blood
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Your point is how I've always read Tolkien's notes about some of the Nazgul being "Numenorean" in ancestry. We know that Numenor had colonies and satrapies on the mainland, governed and led by colonial populations who'd returned to Middle-earth from their island homeland. They are "Numenorean" in heritage, but they are no longer "Numenorean" in residence. Surely this is the population that Sauron seduced and, in some cases, utterly corrupted with his gifts of nine Rings of Power. Tolkien never suggests that the royal family or even its princely adjuncts were liable to contact with Sauron in a way that would result in a Ring and a descent into wraithdom. That's not in keeping with his conception of the Fall of Numenor, as noted elsewhere in this thread. The 1940s Rings of Power narrative postdates the 1930s Tale of Numenor, to the point that Tolkien had to do backflips to include Sauron's own Ring in the later versions of the Akallabeth, when The Lord of the Rings had been added to the legendarium. He, I think, had no interest at all in complicating the Fall by including the secondary Rings in the story. Sauron, without use of his own Ring, simply completes the seduction of the Kings of Men in a disaster that they were already bringing upon themselves, with no Rings involved at all.
squire online: Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 18, 9:35am
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Maybe identity was complicated
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Thanks Felagund, and squire. The impression I get is that it is highly arguable that a Numernorean identiy was a complex business. Which is how it is in the Primary World (though of course what happens in the Primary World cannot necessarily be imported wholeale or willy-nilly into Tolkien's fantasy realms.) Tolkien himself offers an example of the complications of identity:
- He was born in South Africa. But as far as I know he didn't consider himself South African, and is most usually considered as English.
- He was proud of his German ancestory, kept that up through the First World War, though seems to have become less proud of it due to disgust of Hitler.
- He - rather romanically or ecentrically - liked to call himself "A Mercian" sometimes, thus identifying with a long extinct and highly variable set of boundaries. Mercia expanded and contracted like a boa constrictor, depending on how it was faring in wars and treaties both with other kingdoms (Wessex especially) and with further waves of violent would-be settlers (who tended to be called 'Danes' not necessaily implying an origin in modern Denmark).
Similarly, I understand it's not uncommon for some Americans to describe themselves as, say, Scottish or Irish or Italian or Greek; and consider this not to be undermined in the slightest if their family has lived exclusively in America for several generations and would be had to distinguish from other Americans except in their feelings of identity.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 18, 7:33pm
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Similarly, I understand it's not uncommon for some Americans to describe themselves as, say, Scottish or Irish or Italian or Greek; and consider this not to be undermined in the slightest if their family has lived exclusively in America for several generations and would be had to distinguish from other Americans except in their feelings of identity. Not always taken seriously; my aunt married a McGraw and joked about how he made her Irish. Some people take it seriously, but never as "We've been Italian for 4 generations, and we're going back to Italy soon where we belong." Instead as, "We're Italian, that's how we do things." (dinner habits, birthdays, behavior, whatever) Plenty of us are mutts who have no label, so it's a variable phenomenon.
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Morthoron
Hithlum

Feb 19, 1:39am
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And then there's the Mouth of Sauron...
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Identified by Tolkien as "Black Númenórean" even though that particular branch had declined precipitously since the War of the Last Alliance. and are absent from Middle-earth history after being utterly defeated by Hyarmendacil I in TA 1050. And yet MoS is claimed to be a descendant.
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sevilodorf
Dor-Lomin
Feb 19, 2:22am
Post #87 of 203
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A stray thought a la Gorbag and Shagrat
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Would the Nazgul have considered trying to slip off and set up on their own? Would they even have been capable of such considerations or are they too much under the power of the Ring? What about all those years Sauron was "recuperating"? What were they up to?
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua (Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 19, 4:11am
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Would the Nazgul have considered trying to slip off and set up on their own? Would they even have been capable of such considerations or are they too much under the power of the Ring? What about all those years Sauron was "recuperating"? What were they up to? I'd say that the Nazgul were entirely subservient to Sauron. By the end of the Third Age, they seemed to have lost almost all sense of individual identity to the extent that they could not even recall their mortal names. I have to assume that, before Sauron regained his strength, the Ringwraiths largely had to oversee the regions that were still under the Dark Lord's sway: Mordor; Rhun: Umbar: Khand; Near and Far Harad.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 19, 10:49am
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Colonial Timelines, Wraith Timelines
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Your point is how I've always read Tolkien's notes about some of the Nazgul being "Numenorean" in ancestry. We know that Numenor had colonies and satrapies on the mainland, governed and led by colonial populations who'd returned to Middle-earth from their island homeland. They are "Numenorean" in heritage, but they are no longer "Numenorean" in residence. Surely this is the population that Sauron seduced and, in some cases, utterly corrupted with his gifts of nine Rings of Power. Looking at the timeline in LotR, Sauron is defeated with the help of Tar-Minastir's navy in 1700, and then: c. 1800 From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor. The colonies at this early time would have been small and insignificant next to the importance of the mainland, not the sort of places where you find "great lords" as permanent residents. 2280 Umbar is made into a great fortress of Númenor. But the Nazgûl had already appeared earlier that century, their process of wraithification complete.
Tolkien never suggests that the royal family or even its princely adjuncts were liable to contact with Sauron in a way that would result in a Ring and a descent into wraithdom. That's not in keeping with his conception of the Fall of Numenor, as noted elsewhere in this thread. There is that one version of the timeline where Tar-Ciryatan lives for over 600 years... The members of the royal family wouldn't have contacted Sauron. Sauron would have contacted them, and not under his real identity.
The 1940s Rings of Power narrative postdates the 1930s Tale of Numenor, to the point that Tolkien had to do backflips to include Sauron's own Ring in the later versions of the Akallabeth, when The Lord of the Rings had been added to the legendarium. He, I think, had no interest at all in complicating the Fall by including the secondary Rings in the story. Sauron, without use of his own Ring, simply completes the seduction of the Kings of Men in a disaster that they were already bringing upon themselves, with no Rings involved at all. The nature of storytelling is that things develop between different versions. You cannot assume that the plot would have remained static and unelaborated in Tolkien's mind when new major elements were introduced. This "complicating the Fall" creates no new plot holes but solves the issue of Sauron ignoring the Númenor mainland (because he didn't do so here) and gives more background on how the King's Men started to crystallize. The existence of the faction implies that the king must have had strong ideas about the matter and was a driving force behind the split.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 19, 2:58pm
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Numenorean Lords in Middle-earth
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Your point is how I've always read Tolkien's notes about some of the Nazgul being "Numenorean" in ancestry. We know that Numenor had colonies and satrapies on the mainland, governed and led by colonial populations who'd returned to Middle-earth from their island homeland. They are "Numenorean" in heritage, but they are no longer "Numenorean" in residence. Surely this is the population that Sauron seduced and, in some cases, utterly corrupted with his gifts of nine Rings of Power. Looking at the timeline in LotR, Sauron is defeated with the help of Tar-Minastir's navy in 1700, and then: c. 1800 From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor. The colonies at this early time would have been small and insignificant next to the importance of the mainland, not the sort of places where you find "great lords" as permanent residents. Why would you assume that? Earlier in the Second Age, Tar-Aldarion (the Mariner; S.A. 700-1099) spent a great deal of time in Middle-earth even after he gained the throne. Why wouldn't some of the great lords of Númenor want to make a name for themselves as governors of Middle-earth colonies, especially during Númenor's expansionist period when it was exploiting Middle-earth for its resources? Seems like a good way to gain wealth and influence to me.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 19, 5:56pm
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Why would you assume that? Earlier in the Second Age, Tar-Aldarion (the Mariner; S.A. 700-1099) spent a great deal of time in Middle-earth even after he gained the throne. Why wouldn't some of the great lords of Númenor want to make a name for themselves as governors of Middle-earth colonies, especially during Númenor's expansionist period when it was exploiting Middle-earth for its resources? Seems like a good way to gain wealth and influence to me. As Aldarion and Erendis tells, Tar-Aldarion spent years and years in Middle-earth trying to build and rebuild a harbor that kept being destroyed in storms. Then Tar-Ancalimë took over and didn't want any sailing to Middle-earth. At the end of her reign the number of Númenoreans in Middle-earth would have been plain zero. According to Appendix B, it wouldn't be until 1800 that significant colonization efforts started, and the initial colonies would have been small settlements without much infrastructure. Pelargir wasn't even founded until 2350. The British Empire had significant surplus population to go as settlers in new lands. There is no indication that this was the case for Númenor for a long time with their low initial population density and low population growth. Númenor also had the resources it needed at home without long ocean trips.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 19, 10:29pm
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... on the chronology of the drafting - very much pertinent to what's being discussed! Tolkien's epistolic commentary on the events of the Akallabêth went even further than the later redrafts of that story in terms of retrofitting, I reckon - as specifically set out in Letter 211, written in 1958:
He [Sauron] naturally had the One Ring [with him in Númenor], and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them...) And, in the context of answering how an disincarnated Sauron could possibly have borne the One Ring back with him, following his 'death' in the cataclysm that destroyed Númenor:
I do not think one need boggle at this spirit [Sauron's] carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. Retrofitting at its finest!
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 20, 1:01am
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dates that more or less match up don't necessarily make for good logistics [part II]
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On the timelines we're focusing on, I'm not sure I follow all of your argumentation. There's nothing I can see in it that underwrites Ciryatan being the answer to 'who was the Witch-king, originally?'. Via the 'Tale of Years' (Appendix B, LotR), we have a fixed (or rather circa) date for the 'when' of the emergence of the Nazgûl, c. II.2251. And two precise dates concerning two named Númenórean strongholds in Middle-earth: II.2280 for Umbar and II.2350 for Pelargir. For the latter, this is a construction date ("was built"), and for the former, it was arguably an 'upgrade' date rather than a 'first built' one ("was made into a great fortress"). Moreover, in a very late in life note dated to c. 1970 ('Note on the delay of Gil-galad and the Númenóreans', NoMe 3.XVIII), Tolkien adds another layer to the history of Pelargir, by referring to "the Númenóreans occupying the Mouths of Anduin and the shorelands of Lebennin...". This setting is at some point between II.1600, when Sauron forges the One Ring and II.1695, when he invades Eriador. In other words, Pelargir was preceded by adjacent, possibly pre-located, Númenórean settlement.* Add to this that Vinyalondë, at the mouth of the River Gwathló, was a functioning Númenórean settlement ("a small Númenórean harbour") at the time of Tar-Minastir's intervention in the War of the Elves and Sauron ('The History of Galadriel & Celeborn', Unfinished Tales), and it's evident that there were Númenóreans dwelling in Middle-earth, prior to the formal foundation / upgrade dates of Umbar and Pelargir. I agree with you that the founding of Pelargir and Umbar come across as very significant events in the history of Númenórean colonisation of Middle-earth. And by extension, they likely outstripped in size and grandeur earlier editions. And I agree with you that because they post-date the emergence of the Nazgûl, they are not the dwelling places of 'the great lords', three of the future Nazgûl, we're looking for. Yet I'm less certain than you when you say:
The colonies at this early time would have been small and insignificant next to the importance of the mainland, not the sort of places where you find "great lords" as permanent residents. Smaller, sure. Insignificant? Maybe but not necessarily. Afterall, Númenórean settlements are being founded / expanded in the cause of 'dominion' from c. II.1800, as per the entry in 'The Tale of Years' that you quote:
c. 1800 From about this time onward the Númenóreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor. I reckon it's eminently conceivable that 'great lords' of Númenórean descent could have set up shop early in this 'dominion' phase, even if we dismiss the idea that the pre-II.1700 Númenórean population in Middle-earth may also have been worthy enough to include such lords among their number. Looking at who the kings were in this era, Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir and what they were doing ("eager for wealth, and they laid the Men of Middle-earth under tribute" - Akallabêth), it's easy enough to imagine members of the Númenórean aristocracy piling in - serving as colonial governors, overseers of tribute collection and so on. The preserve and business of aristocracies - existing or on the make - in many a historical empire. So, coming back around to the date for the emergence of the Nazgûl, c. II.2251. Yes, this utter enslavement is completed many decades before Umbar and Pelargir enter into 'The Tale of Years'. But what does that really tell us with regard to when Sauron distributed those particular Rings of Power? What we can pin down is a terminus post quem, II.1697 (ie. when Sauron first gets his hands on these Rings) and a terminus ante quem of c. II.2051. Why does this mean Ciryatan is the future Witch-king? We are looking for three 'great lords'. Sure, it can be made to fit with the terminus post quem. But there is no 'two great lords and one crown prince' passage to draw on for this. And we've seen above that there's sufficient context in what Tolkien wrote to assume that there were likely plenty of candidates for Sauron to approach/seduce in the date range we're talking about. There isn't, in my view, a problem that needs solving by inserting Ciryatan into this. Not least because there is no imperative to tie origins of the future Witch-king to the earliest possible date - there are another 500 or so years to choose from, after all! It does provide for some fun extratextual speculation, admittedly. This part of your theory also caught my eye:
This "complicating the Fall" creates no new plot holes but solves the issue of Sauron ignoring the Númenor mainland (because he didn't do so here) and gives more background on how the King's Men started to crystallize. The existence of the faction implies that the king must have had strong ideas about the matter and was a driving force behind the split. I'm not sure why the emergence of the King's Men needs Sauron or a Ring of Power (transmitted to Númenor by Ciryatan or anyone else for that matter) to explain it. I agree with you that the corruption of the bulk of the Númenóreans would have been linked to/guided by the world view articulated by the king - Tar-Ancalimon in Akallabêth, and Tar-Atanamir in 'The Tale of Years'. I reckon squire and Otaku set out very well that the Fall has its own well-established origin and narrative, separate to the Rings of Power. Insofar as the Ring-lore is retrofitted into this Fall by the author, it's not there to describe the 'why' or the 'how' of that Fall, but rather serves to help explain why Sauron was able to suborn the Númenóreans relatively easily. He is not 'the Shadow', in this context. And finally, a question! Is the source for the below tucked away in HoMe XII somewhere or somewhere else altogether?
There is that one version of the timeline where Tar-Ciryatan lives for over 600 years... * I wrote an essay on this subject a few years back and posted it in the Reading Room, if interested: A Tale of Two Cities: Umbar & Pelargir
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 20, 1:31am
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I agree with this assessment of Vinyalondë, as it pertains to Aldarion's era. Yes, prince, then king Aldarion failed to keep this settlement going. And yes, Tar-Ancalimë dumped her late father's support for Gil-galad ("After Aldarion's death she neglected all his policies, and gave no further aid to Gilgalad [sic]" - 'The Line of Elros'). Yet it's worth noting that there is, early in the reign of Tar-Minastir, some 600 years later "a small Númenórean harbour" at the mouth of the River Gwathló, including "forts at the Haven" - Vinyalondë restored, as CJRT concluded ('The History of Galadriel and Celeborn'). This is before the c. II.1800 'dominion-building' era that you cite from 'The Tale of Years'. I also agree that it may be that the Númenórean population in Middle-earth was negligible by the end of Tar-Ancalimë's reign (II.1280). But it's up and running again in the 17th century of the Second Age at the latest.
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(This post was edited by Felagund on Feb 20, 1:35am)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 20, 1:33am
Post #95 of 203
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far greater and more pivotal responsibility means the need for far greater control from the top. A couple of orcs going off on their own, even if they managed to get a large number of other or to go with them, aren't going to threaten Sauron's sovereignty, even if they might disrupt things. But also, judging by their state after Sauron's fall, I'm not sure how much independence the orcs would have, long-term.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 20, 2:14am
Post #96 of 203
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Thanks, Felagund; you've stated the case much better than I would have. However, the link to your previous post does not seem to be working!
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 20, 10:50am
Post #98 of 203
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Aargh, tech fail! Cheers squire! I'm a Luddite masquerading as a functional 21st century citizen :)
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 20, 4:59pm
Post #99 of 203
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I agree with this assessment of Vinyalondë, as it pertains to Aldarion's era. Yes, prince, then king Aldarion failed to keep this settlement going. And yes, Tar-Ancalimë dumped her late father's support for Gil-galad ("After Aldarion's death she neglected all his policies, and gave no further aid to Gilgalad [sic]" - 'The Line of Elros'). Yet it's worth noting that there is, early in the reign of Tar-Minastir, some 600 years later "a small Númenórean harbour" at the mouth of the River Gwathló, including "forts at the Haven" - Vinyalondë restored, as CJRT concluded ('The History of Galadriel and Celeborn'). This is before the c. II.1800 'dominion-building' era that you cite from 'The Tale of Years'. I also agree that it may be that the Númenórean population in Middle-earth was negligible by the end of Tar-Ancalimë's reign (II.1280). But it's up and running again in the 17th century of the Second Age at the latest. Sauron didn't give rings to just any random Númenoreans. He specifically targeted "great lords". Not just "lords" but "great lords". Those tend to be too important to be living as permanent residents at tiny colonial outposts. If such a lord wanted peace and quiet, he could go to his country estate (similar to Erendis) and would have no need to play Little House on the Prairie in a distant country that takes months of sailing to reach and has issues with hostile natives. The settlers to America too were mainly from the lower classes. The powerful aristocrats had no need to go. As for what would count as a "great lord", I think a duke or better? There are not many of those in a realm.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 20, 7:54pm
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On the timelines we're focusing on, I'm not sure I follow all of your argumentation. There's nothing I can see in it that underwrites Ciryatan being the answer to 'who was the Witch-king, originally?'. Via the 'Tale of Years' (Appendix B, LotR), we have a fixed (or rather circa) date for the 'when' of the emergence of the Nazgûl, c. II.2251. And two precise dates concerning two named Númenórean strongholds in Middle-earth: II.2280 for Umbar and II.2350 for Pelargir. For the latter, this is a construction date ("was built"), and for the former, it was arguably an 'upgrade' date rather than a 'first built' one ("was made into a great fortress"). Moreover, in a very late in life note dated to c. 1970 ('Note on the delay of Gil-galad and the Númenóreans', NoMe 3.XVIII), Tolkien adds another layer to the history of Pelargir, by referring to "the Númenóreans occupying the Mouths of Anduin and the shorelands of Lebennin...". This setting is at some point between II.1600, when Sauron forges the One Ring and II.1695, when he invades Eriador. In other words, Pelargir was preceded by adjacent, possibly pre-located, Númenórean settlement.* Add to this that Vinyalondë, at the mouth of the River Gwathló, was a functioning Númenórean settlement ("a small Númenórean harbour") at the time of Tar-Minastir's intervention in the War of the Elves and Sauron ('The History of Galadriel & Celeborn', Unfinished Tales), and it's evident that there were Númenóreans dwelling in Middle-earth, prior to the formal foundation / upgrade dates of Umbar and Pelargir. I agree with you that the founding of Pelargir and Umbar come across as very significant events in the history of Númenórean colonisation of Middle-earth. And by extension, they likely outstripped in size and grandeur earlier editions. And I agree with you that because they post-date the emergence of the Nazgûl, they are not the dwelling places of 'the great lords', three of the future Nazgûl, we're looking for. Yet I'm less certain than you when you say: The colonies at this early time would have been small and insignificant next to the importance of the mainland, not the sort of places where you find "great lords" as permanent residents. Smaller, sure. Insignificant? Maybe but not necessarily. Afterall, Númenórean settlements are being founded / expanded in the cause of 'dominion' from c. II.1800, as per the entry in 'The Tale of Years' that you quote: c. 1800 From about this time onward the Númenóreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor. I reckon it's eminently conceivable that 'great lords' of Númenórean descent could have set up shop early in this 'dominion' phase, even if we dismiss the idea that the pre-II.1700 Númenórean population in Middle-earth may also have been worthy enough to include such lords among their number. Looking at who the kings were in this era, Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir and what they were doing ("eager for wealth, and they laid the Men of Middle-earth under tribute" - Akallabêth), it's easy enough to imagine members of the Númenórean aristocracy piling in - serving as colonial governors, overseers of tribute collection and so on. The preserve and business of aristocracies - existing or on the make - in many a historical empire. So, coming back around to the date for the emergence of the Nazgûl, c. II.2251. Yes, this utter enslavement is completed many decades before Umbar and Pelargir enter into 'The Tale of Years'. But what does that really tell us with regard to when Sauron distributed those particular Rings of Power? What we can pin down is a terminus post quem, II.1697 (ie. when Sauron first gets his hands on these Rings) and a terminus ante quem of c. II.2051. Why does this mean Ciryatan is the future Witch-king? We are looking for three 'great lords'. Sure, it can be made to fit with the terminus post quem. But there is no 'two great lords and one crown prince' passage to draw on for this. And we've seen above that there's sufficient context in what Tolkien wrote to assume that there were likely plenty of candidates for Sauron to approach/seduce in the date range we're talking about. There isn't, in my view, a problem that needs solving by inserting Ciryatan into this. Not least because there is no imperative to tie origins of the future Witch-king to the earliest possible date - there are another 500 or so years to choose from, after all! It does provide for some fun extratextual speculation, admittedly. Aldarion and Erendis gives information on the state of Middle-earth (or at least Eriador) in Aldarion's time. Aldarion found Middle-earth very sparsely populated, but with vast virgin forests. Aldarion was interested in lumber from these forests so that he could build more ships because he liked ships. Sauron would later on work to improve the areas under his control, but it doesn't sound like the Númenoreans tried to colonize these places. If they had, the second war against Sauron would have come much sooner. The timeline mentions no noteworthy conquests. There would have been some skirmishes and minor clashes, but the only two real wars mentioned are against Sauron. My conclusion is that the Númenoreans were content to colonize places that didn't require much manpower to conquer. Consequently all their colonies would have to be built nearly from scratch and it would be a long time for these to grow into the sort of places where "great lords" would live. The choice of leaving Sauron alone can be interpreted as a sign of Sauron's subtle influence. It isn't until Ar-Pharazôn that Númenor breaks its long-standing non-intervention policy against Sauron, and Ar-Pharazôn had Tar-Palantír before him to put a stop to the tradition the kings may have had among themselves that was the justification for the policy. As for the tribute from Middle-earth, furs, ivory, incense etc. as well as slaves are likely. Such things do not need complex and powerful civilizations to produce.
This part of your theory also caught my eye: This "complicating the Fall" creates no new plot holes but solves the issue of Sauron ignoring the Númenor mainland (because he didn't do so here) and gives more background on how the King's Men started to crystallize. The existence of the faction implies that the king must have had strong ideas about the matter and was a driving force behind the split. I'm not sure why the emergence of the King's Men needs Sauron or a Ring of Power (transmitted to Númenor by Ciryatan or anyone else for that matter) to explain it. I agree with you that the corruption of the bulk of the Númenóreans would have been linked to/guided by the world view articulated by the king - Tar-Ancalimon in Akallabêth, and Tar-Atanamir in 'The Tale of Years'. I reckon squire and Otaku set out very well that the Fall has its own well-established origin and narrative, separate to the Rings of Power. Insofar as the Ring-lore is retrofitted into this Fall by the author, it's not there to describe the 'why' or the 'how' of that Fall, but rather serves to help explain why Sauron was able to suborn the Númenóreans relatively easily. He is not 'the Shadow', in this context. The psychological condition of the Númenoreans explains why the king's message would have been so widely popular. Sauron influencing the king through a Ring of Power explains why the king would be propagating the message in the first place. It would have been easy for the king to adhere to the traditions from sheer inertia (after all, those traditions put him at the top), but instead he chose to actively rebel and spread the rebellion. Compare and contrast with the French Revolution.
And finally, a question! Is the source for the below tucked away in HoMe XII somewhere or somewhere else altogether? There is that one version of the timeline where Tar-Ciryatan lives for over 600 years... See this article by someone who isn't me: https://storiesnevertold.quora.com/...g-The-Witch-King-who
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 20, 11:22pm
Post #101 of 203
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settler demographics, including aristocratic diaspora and status-building in a colonial context
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You've hopefully read some of the other stuff that's been posted in this thread. No one, myself included, is relying solely on Vinyalondë to explain the possible presence of 'great lords' in the Númenórean band of settlement in Middle-earth. It's pretty much impossible for me, at least, to tell whether Tolkien had a specific primary world analogue or analogues in mind, when providing a feigned history for Númenórean colonisation. I do know, however, that colonial aristocracies formed or adapted and became 'great' in outremer territories - either from humble or less humble beginnings. The Crusader States are an example of this phenomenon in action. Indeed, the entire history of the Hauteville family once they left Normandy for southern Italy and beyond is a half-decent microcosm/case in point. Not that I reckon Tolkien was cutting and pasting 12th century Europe and the Levant. My point is that the assertion you're making that "great lords of Númenórean descent" could not possibly have been present and correct in Middle-earth at any point in the time period we're discussing is too stark for my taste. It's not supported in the text and, for what it's worth, it's not my take on the way in which colonial expansion took place in a Medieval European context. My take on the latter isn't original, for the avoidance of doubt! Robert Bartlett's seminal work, The Making of Europe: Conquest, Colonization and Cultural Change, 950-1350 has influenced my thinking on the subject for many years. Thinking about this:
As for what would count as a "great lord", I think a duke or better? There are not many of those in a realm. I listed a handful of lords, great or otherwise, linked explicitly to Númenórean terra firma a few posts ago. Subsequently, I re-read footnote 23 to 'Aldarion & Erendis', which sets out that during the reign of Tar-Meneldur the advisory 'Council of the Sceptre' was comprised of representatives from each of Númenor's regions. Perhaps these were accounted as 'great lords' of or in Númenor - Valandil, Lords of Andúnië and Hallatan the 'sheep-lord' being among them, for the Andustar and Hyarastorni regions respectively. At any rate, I wouldn't leap to describe them as "great lords of Númenórean descent". That descriptor, written by Tolkien specifically in relation to the three corrupted Númenóreans who would become Nazgûl, would strike me as redundant in an 'island of Númenor' context. In a colonial context on the other hand...!
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 21, 12:14am
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Thanks for mentioning Robert Bartlett's book
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I had never heard of it, and it seems a fresh take on things often overlooked.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 21, 12:50am
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Thanks for the reply. Númenórean colonisation is something I defo find interesting. Some of your reply I still couldn't follow. Especially the characterisation of the Númenóreans leaving Sauron alone after the War of the Elves and Sauron, and prior to Ar-Pharazôn military humbling of Sauron. As recounted in the Akallabêth, Sauron is certainly at bay for many years after the devastating defeat he suffered at the end of the War of the Elves and Sauron. However, "when the Úlairi arose [c. II.2251]... he [Sauron] began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea." In that text and in 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age', there is also reference to Númenóreans continuing to aid Gil-galad in his struggle with Sauron. I guess this material is what you were referring to when you spoke of "some skirmishes and minor clashes". I'd agree that they don't seem like the two huge set-piece wars that bookend Númenórean intervention in Middle-earth. They do sound a bit like centuries of hostilities though, where by choice or because they were under attack, the Númenóreans were hardly "leaving Sauron alone". And Sauron actually attacking the Númenóreans doesn't come across as Sauron trying to subtly influence them to leave him alone either! Am also not convinced by this assertion:
Consequently all their colonies would have to be built nearly from scratch and it would be a long time for these to grow into the sort of places where "great lords" would live. You're relying on an assumption that a range of colonial settlements founded across different locations are all growing at a uniformly slow rate in order to explain the lack of three 'great lords', in order to prove that Ciryatan is the Witch-king. On this one:
The psychological condition of the Númenoreans explains why the king's message would have been so widely popular. Sauron influencing the king through a Ring of Power explains why the king would be propagating the message in the first place. It would have been easy for the king to adhere to the traditions from sheer inertia (after all, those traditions put him at the top), but instead he chose to actively rebel and spread the rebellion. As flagged elsewhere in the thread, Tolkien directly explains how the King's Men faction arose. At length, in a Melian Dialogue style format. And without reference or recourse to a Ring of Power. You mention psychological condition: the debate between the Messengers of Manwë and the Númenóreans is a genuinely interesting study of the psychology of the Númenóreans of that era. The king, and the Númenóreans by extension, are indeed at the top. But it's still not enough for them and therein is the seed of their fall. The King's Men are the first generation to stumble in this regard. Thanks for the link to the article - genuinely fascinating stuff! My personal view is that the author mistakes Tolkien's general reference to 'hints' and 'allusions' in Letter 156 as a cypher for a treasure map leading to specific secrets, which the especially attentive (ie. the author) can uncover. And one such secret is that Ciryatan was the Witch-king. The author also makes a date discrepancy do a lot of heavy lifting in order to conclude that Ciryatan lived for 617 years. Letter 156 also happens to be another good source for Tolkien's conceptualisation of the Fall of the Númenóreans, without reference to any Rings of Power.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 21, 6:27pm
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Tolkien's epistolic commentary on the events of the Akallabêth went even further than the later redrafts of that story in terms of retrofitting, I reckon - as specifically set out in Letter 211, written in 1958: He [Sauron] naturally had the One Ring [with him in Númenor], and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them...) If you think about it, the secrecy of the Elves would have meant that the Númenoreans had absolutely no idea of the potential dangers of magical jewelry. The Númenoreans might have needed some convincing that such items really worked, but side effects such as loss of free will would have been stuff beyond the most paranoid of nightmares. Then naturally the wielders of the rings would have kept their rings absolutely secret too. They would have done their best to avoid their rings becoming common knowledge (a thief can't target a valuable which he doesn't know even exists), and if any of the contemporaries had suspicions, such ideas would have sounded outlandish both to them and everyone around them. Then by time of Ar-Pharazôn many generations had passed and everyone in Númenor that had witnessed the changes upon the owners of the rings was long dead or a wraith. Though, it is possible that Ar-Pharazôn had some idea about the Rings of Power from family lore. Tolkien specifies that Ar-Pharazôn didn't know about the One Ring. He might nevertheless have heard something about how an ancestor had had an exceptionally long life and magical abilities and that that same ancestor had had a very special magic ring with a valuable gem...
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 21, 7:55pm
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mispronouncing Bilbo's designation in the Hobbit, all this time! No wonder he was reluctant to go on the quest. 
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 21, 7:58pm
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Would give a whole new meaning to "he boggled my mind" :) //
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 21, 8:04pm
Post #108 of 203
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We should rename this "The Boggling Room"
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if we're being honest. Yes, I too admit to being a boggler, and an unapologetic one at that. I don't lose any sleep over Sauron's spirit carrying the Ring back to M-earth. I guess I cherry pick what I boggle about. There are times when even I admit we shouldn't boggle. I was thinking in that "always on" mentality we have in 2025, how we expect the Ring to act like an appliance. If I turn on a lamp, it sheds light on everyone in the room, right? Or my phone rings for every phone call and not just a few of them, right? So, why didn't the Ring tempt everyone in the Fellowship? I keep thinking that "old magic" didn't work that way. Say you had a stone circle in England: sometimes when you stepped in it, it would conjure up fairies or turn you into a newt or whisk you off to a land of talking animals, and other times it did nothing. That was part of magic: chaotic, unpredictable, mysterious. It didn't always turn on when you hit the power switch, and no one had that expectation, so no one boggled about it.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 21, 8:10pm
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That is what Tolkien is thinking in UT
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I'd say that the Nazgul were entirely subservient to Sauron. In The Hunt For The Ring (UT) Tokien writes as follows (This is about Sauron deciding what to do in the 'Cold War' period when everyone is trying to discover stuff about teh Ring, without revealing what they do or don't kow, or what they are trying to find out. This about Sauron's thoughts once he learns that Gollum has been captured by Aragorn):
“At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held. Now few could withstand even one of these fell creatures, and (as Sauron deemed) none could withstand them when gathered together under their terrible captain, the Lord of Morgul. Yet this weakness they had for Sauron’s present purpose: so great was the terror that went with them (even invisible and unclad) that their coming forth might soon be perceived and their mission be guessed by the Wise.” [my italics] I like this quandry - the only servants who can hunt the Ring are the Nazgul because (I assume) they are the only ones who would hand it over if they got it). But otherwise they are very unsuitable for this mission to The Shire.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 21, 10:59pm
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You've hopefully read some of the other stuff that's been posted in this thread. No one, myself included, is relying solely on Vinyalondë to explain the possible presence of 'great lords' in the Númenórean band of settlement in Middle-earth. It's pretty much impossible for me, at least, to tell whether Tolkien had a specific primary world analogue or analogues in mind, when providing a feigned history for Númenórean colonisation. I do know, however, that colonial aristocracies formed or adapted and became 'great' in outremer territories - either from humble or less humble beginnings. The Crusader States are an example of this phenomenon in action. Indeed, the entire history of the Hauteville family once they left Normandy for southern Italy and beyond is a half-decent microcosm/case in point. Not that I reckon Tolkien was cutting and pasting 12th century Europe and the Levant. My point is that the assertion you're making that "great lords of Númenórean descent" could not possibly have been present and correct in Middle-earth at any point in the time period we're discussing is too stark for my taste. It's not supported in the text and, for what it's worth, it's not my take on the way in which colonial expansion took place in a Medieval European context. My take on the latter isn't original, for the avoidance of doubt! Robert Bartlett's seminal work, The Making of Europe: Conquest, Colonization and Cultural Change, 950-1350 has influenced my thinking on the subject for many years. The description of the nearly empty and uncultivated Eriador in Aldarion and Erendis reminds me of North America more than anything other real historical place - the North America of literary imagination even more so. Aldarion's early attempts at colonization would perhaps be the most similar to the early journeys to Vinland. Colonization of Middle-earth would eventually lead to a powerful "United States" in the form of Gondor (and a "Latin America" in the form of Umbar and the lands around it), but this wouldn't be until much later. We also have information on the demographics and technology levels in the wider Middle-earth, but this would be during the reign of Sauron, after the forging of the One Ring and the reveal of the Nazgûl: But in Lindon Gil-galad still maintained his power, and Sauron dared not as yet to pass the Mountains of Ered Luin nor to assail the Havens; and Gil-galad was aided by the Númenóreans. Elsewhere Sauron reigned, and those who would be free took refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain, and ever fear pursued them. In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and armed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire. -- The Silmarillion Here the spread of walled towns and iron-working is portrayed as a change in Middle-earth. Sauron with his love of industry appears to have encouraged the spread of these things, or at the very least allowed for them to flourish. Improvements in agriculture would probably have been involved too to allow for population growth. All this advancement however would not have been an instant thing, but something that developed gradually over the so-called Dark Years and was slow to reach the areas of Middle-earth where Sauron didn't rule. I think the real counterpart for the period of the ring distribution in the Second Age would be in the very distant past. Númenor as Atlantis would be reasonably developed with knowledge of metals and sailing and an organized, hierarchical society, but in the rest of the world it was still a time before the rise of Egypt and Sumer. (Umbar would later develop into Egypt, while Sumer would have been one of the lands under Sauron's control.)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 22, 1:12am
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It seems to me they were coached,
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with some basic ideas on how to talk to "ordinary folk," but that it didn't "take" very well. All that hissing . . .
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squire
Gondolin

Feb 22, 2:24am
Post #112 of 203
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I've been a boggler for ever so long a time.
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I've never accepted Tolkien's nonsensical retcon - except that, of course, I have to. It's "his candy store", as I commented on this question a while ago.
squire online: Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
(This post was edited by squire on Feb 22, 2:25am)
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 22, 7:37am
Post #113 of 203
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(Answer to that they were coached)
with some basic ideas on how to talk to "ordinary folk," but that it didn't "take" very well. All that hissing . . . I got the impression that Khamûl wasn't a native Westron speaker. The Witch-king is much more eloquent. Khamûl would probably be more fluent in his native language as well as Black Speech, and he may also have known other languages used in the East, and maybe even some forms of Elvish. He had a basic understanding of Westron but hadn't used it much.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 22, 5:41pm
Post #114 of 203
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I just read something about the origins of the word...
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I just blundered into something fun about the origins of the word 'boggle', from the great Jewish lexicographer Miriam Webster:
Usually it’s the mind that boggles or gets boggled. In either case, the person with the mind that is boggling or being boggled is amazed or overwhelmed by something: [example sentences concerning hot pot options and paparazzi squirrels] But before people were overwhelmed by hot pot options and paparazzi squirrels, they were overwhelmed by supernatural forces—at least, they believed they were. Etymologists think that boggle likely comes from an obscure British dialect noun, bogle. A bogle is a goblin or specter, or, more broadly any object of fear or loathing. (Bogle is also the likely origin of the bogey in bogeyman and its variant boogeyman.) [normally nowadays it is the mind that boggles...] But in the earliest known example of boggle in use, it wasn’t a mind or an imagination that boggled but some horses. The sentence is from a late 16th century translation of Homer’s Iliad: They [steeds] should not with affright Boggle, nor snore. Back then, boggle meant “to make a sudden jerky movement (as of alarm)” or “to start with fright.” According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the connection between creepy bogles and horses boggling resides in the reputation horses have for being able to see goblins and specters, and to (understandably) start with fright when they do. https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/boggle And all this seemed a bit related to your idea, CuriousG that our sometimes ideas of Middle-earth might be a little too mechanistic.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 22, 5:47pm
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Maybe this "Bogglers Anonymous" idea won't work...
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Maybe this "Bogglers Anonymous" idea won't work. For one thing I might have blown the 'anonymous' bit (though maybe nobody noticed?). For another we'd be supposed to support each other to stop Boggling, and I'm not sure I see why we should.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 22, 5:50pm
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Well, I actually meant their social, not language skills, but
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of course one would affect the other.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 22, 5:55pm
Post #117 of 203
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I'm still enjoying the idea that, due to a misunderstanding, Bilbo was expecting to join the expedition to be astonished by the wonders of the world outside the Shire.... ...and then discovers that they want him to steal something from a dragon.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 22, 5:56pm
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Huh, I've been around horses some, but never heard them do that! I haven't been around any slumbering steeds, though. (Maybe he meant snort?) Yes, I actually remember reading that somewhere else, about boggle proceeding from the idea of a ghost. Didn't know about that earliest version, though, but it makes sense that one would naturally boggle at a bogle. Etymology is wonderful thing.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 22, 5:57pm)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 22, 6:08pm
Post #119 of 203
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I wonder if he did feel a little bit like that, even though he did sort of have the idea.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 22, 6:24pm
Post #120 of 203
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Yes, maybe they lack 'the common touch' having been kings or lords or watnot, and then becoming terrifying supernatural entities that are at some level fundamentally revolting and also give everyone the screaming hab-dabs. This subthread also has me thinking about who would speak Westron. Tolkien's plot is helped along by his hobbit captives being able to evesdrop on their orc captors, because the different groups can't understand each-others' mother tongues (erm, if orcs have mothers... ) and so have to use Westron as a lingua franca. But let's suppose Westron is wodely spoken as a second language. In a world where most folk don't travel, one could easily assume that there are dialects and accents.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 22, 6:26pm
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Being amazed by teh wonders of the world is certainly one of Bilbo's endearing characteristics //
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 22, 6:34pm
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"snort" sounds more likely, doesn't it
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And the origin of the word snore is consistent with this:
Middle English snoren, fnoren; akin to Old English fnora sneezing, fnaeran to breathe heavily ~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 22, 6:42pm
Post #123 of 203
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Oh and also (having narrowly missed the edit wndow)
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Aragorn says of the Nazgul that
...at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring it and hating it. ...which would be quite distracting in a conversation you'd have thought.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 22, 6:59pm
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Which means that living things smell like prawns to the Nazgul
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Or at least, I remember a time when I couldn't decide whether prawns smelled appetising or disgusting. So I decided to settle on 'disgusting' and have not looked back.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 22, 11:40pm
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Prawns with butter and garlic are heaven, and maybe lemon juice //
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 23, 1:59pm
Post #126 of 203
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Hmm, so "Act Normal for Eriador" - a familiar scene with added internal monologue...
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‘No, Mr. Baggins has gone away. Went this morning, and my Sam went with him: anyway all his stuff went." What does the stupid creature mean? Baggins has left? (let's not worry about what a 'Sam' is for the moment or why Baggins stole it). Ask the creature questions! Remember, The Boss said "Act Normal for Eriador." "Yes, sold out and gone, I tell’ee." What a shame "Act Normal for Eriador." probably does not include "slay annoying creatures with torture." Ask more polite questions. But, by The Eye, these Eriadorians stink. And yet, the smell reminds me of something... something to do with butter and garlic, and maybe lemon-juice. Or...now what was "tempura" again?. But Stop It!! Focus! You no longer care for such mortal pleasures. You are only acting normal for Eriador to find out where Baggins is and capture the Ring. And nothing else. 'No, I can’t give no message. Good night to you!’ Wish it 'good night'. Normal for Eriador, remember. Now walk. Walk down the hill. No, do not wonder how mortals cope with shuch a stupid design as knees. Just walk. Here is Nubbin. Mount up on Nubbin like a Normal For Eriador Rider, and head for that stupid Bucklebury place. Even if you could 'murder a bacon sandwich right now'.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 23, 2:01pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 23, 5:11pm
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Frodo brandished the photo of the Witch-king ex-wife before his eyes, and the Nazgul was boggled at the notion of several centuries of unpaid alimony. Frodo also had a photo of "Nazgul gone wild in Vegas" as backup, hence their immense fear and boggling.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 23, 5:50pm
Post #128 of 203
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I've been reading it, on and off, since the mid-90s and enjoy it every time I pick it up :)
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 23, 6:54pm
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Ah, that bit about the Witch-King's ex-wife explains Gandalf's puzzling remark
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Ah, that bit about the Witch-King's ex-wife explains Gandalf's puzzling remark: "You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abbess prepared for you! Go back!" (The lady must have taken up holy orders and then risen up the convent hierarchy, evidently. But ow she wants her due).
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 23, 7:02pm
Post #130 of 203
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BTW - With 129 replies (when I post this)...
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With 129 replies (when I post this) this discussion is currently joint 23rd in the list of most-replied to posts on this version of the Reading Room forum. And of course perhaps this won't be the end of the replies... Nice to feel we still know how to have sustained fun.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 23, 7:10pm)
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 23, 8:35pm
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The one you quoted from 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'. It's long been one of my (many) faves from The Silmarillion. It is a rare glimpse at what Sauron's dominion, unshackled from any restraints imposed by the Eldar or the Númenóreans, actually looked like. There was development, of a sorts, for those who would submit - a concept that goes as far back as the first draft of 'The Drowning of Anadûnê' and further elaborated by Tolkien in post-LotR writings. A couple of samples:
... and his [Sauron's] rule was of benefit to all men in their needs of the body; for he made them rich, whoso would serve him. ['The Drowning of Anadûnê', HoMe IX]
He [Sauron] had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the [economic] well-being of the other inhabitants of the Earth. [Letter 183] The fascinating story of 'Tal-Elmar' (HoMe XII) provides another such glimpse of 'pax Sauronica'. This tale depicts life as arguably less developed and more brutal for the humans living under Sauron's rule, although agriculture is referred to. I'm flitting between a few different sources and periods, which is usually a risky business, but thematically, there's some consistency, I reckon. Continuing my flittery, whilst observing the rules of boggling, there is a Númenórean analogue of sorts to Sauron's 'munificence': the earliest interactions between the Númenóreans and their distant proto-Edainic kin in Eriador. This is the era before the Númenóreans themselves become in turn an analogue of Sauron's tyrannical domination of the Men of Middle-earth. I'm thinking, in particular, of the following passage from 'Akallabêth':
And the Dúnedain came at times to the shores of the Great Lands, and they took pity on the forsaken world of Middle-earth; and the lords of Númenor set foot again upon the western shores in the Dark Years of Men, and none yet dared to withstand them. For most of the Men of that age that sat under the Shadow were now grown weak and fearful. And coming among them the Númenóreans taught them many things. Corn and wine they brought, and they instructed Men in the sowing of seed and the grinding of grain, in the hewing of wood and the shaping of stone, and in the ordering of their life, such as it might be in the lands of swift death and little bliss. The above is clearly not to be confused with Númenórean interaction with the peoples of Minhiriath and Enedwaith - the ancestors of the Gwathuirim / Dunlendings. These latter, although also distantly related to the Númenóreans, being an archaic branch of the people that became the Folk of Haleth, were forest-dwellers and remained so. Until the bitter end, when the Númenóreans, by their "ruthless treatment and their devastation of the forests" effectively drained these lands of its people and resources. Instead, what's most likely being referred to in the above passage is Númenórean interaction with the population of Eriador north and east of the Baranduin / Brandywine River. One of Tolkien's philological essays, reproduced across Unfinished Tales ('Aldarion & Erendis') and HoMe XII ('Of Dwarves & Men'), writes of the very first such interaction, at the Tower Hills. These 'Men of Eriador' are described as:
... in origin kin of the Folk of Bëor, though some were kin of the Folk of Hador. They dwelt about Lake Evendim, in the North Downs and the Weather Hills, and in the lands between as far as the Brandywine... ('Of Dwarves and Men')
It appears that they were in origin Men of the same stock as the Peoples of Bëor and Hador who had not crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand during the First Age. (Note 3, 'Aldarion & Erendis') These are the most likely candidates for who were the beneficiaries of early Númenórean patronage and largesse. Although no "towns and walls of stone" etc, as per Sauron's sponsorship, are mentioned, agriculture and some degree of settlement formation - "they instructed Men in the sowing of seed and the grinding of grain, in the hewing of wood and the shaping of stone, and in the ordering of their life" - is implied. What happened to this potential flourishing in the north of Eriador isn't directly covered off by Tolkien, although one of the accounts of the War of the Elves and Sauron, as reproduced in 'The History of Galadriel & Celeborn', suggests an unhappy ending, when it notes that when Sauron:
attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador [after his destruction of Eregion] .. he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves... The timelines for the 'tutelage' provided by Sauron and the Númenóreans, respectively don't particularly match up but it was more the 'development' theme than chronological symmetry that caught my eye, inspired by reading your post. And since I've mentioned the 'Of Dwarves & Men' essay, I'll finish this post by noting that another group of the Númenóreans' distant relatives, this time related to the Folk of Hador, was also benefiting from a few 'upgrades' elsewhere in Middle-earth, also in the Second Age. This was in Rhovanion, on account of trade and military cooperation between Durin's Folk and the Men of Rhovanion. Although, unlike in the cases of the Númenóreans and Sauron explored above, this interaction comes across as on a more even footing. Both parties benefited through exchanges that compensated for their respective weaknesses in terms of goods, technology and skills.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator

Feb 23, 8:56pm
Post #132 of 203
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So, it was not supposed to be Eowyn
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who fulfilled the "not by the hand of man shall he fall" prophecy? It boggles the mind! Glorfindel knew the divorce had been rough...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 23, 10:01pm
Post #133 of 203
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Gosh, now I'm imagining a character rather like the one played by Carrie Fischer in The Blues Brothers. She is called, perhaps, Dame Hildegard of Big Gun.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 23, 10:54pm
Post #134 of 203
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Thanks for the reply. Númenórean colonisation is something I defo find interesting. Some of your reply I still couldn't follow. Especially the characterisation of the Númenóreans leaving Sauron alone after the War of the Elves and Sauron, and prior to Ar-Pharazôn military humbling of Sauron. As recounted in the Akallabêth, Sauron is certainly at bay for many years after the devastating defeat he suffered at the end of the War of the Elves and Sauron. However, "when the Úlairi arose [c. II.2251]... he [Sauron] began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea." In that text and in 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age', there is also reference to Númenóreans continuing to aid Gil-galad in his struggle with Sauron. I guess this material is what you were referring to when you spoke of "some skirmishes and minor clashes". I'd agree that they don't seem like the two huge set-piece wars that bookend Númenórean intervention in Middle-earth. They do sound a bit like centuries of hostilities though, where by choice or because they were under attack, the Númenóreans were hardly "leaving Sauron alone". And Sauron actually attacking the Númenóreans doesn't come across as Sauron trying to subtly influence them to leave him alone either! It sounds like there were provocations that Númenor could have used to declare a full-scale war, but for some reason Númenor never declared a full-scale war against Sauron until Ar-Pharazôn.
Am also not convinced by this assertion: Consequently all their colonies would have to be built nearly from scratch and it would be a long time for these to grow into the sort of places where "great lords" would live. You're relying on an assumption that a range of colonial settlements founded across different locations are all growing at a uniformly slow rate in order to explain the lack of three 'great lords', in order to prove that Ciryatan is the Witch-king. The assertion that there were powerful Númenorean colonies very early in the timeline requires inventing a new location that isn't Umbar or Pelargir or Vinyalondë and imagining that it somehow got really powerful and important really fast without a mention of its importance anywhere in the source material. A slow rate of growth for the colonies is natural in a situation where there initially is no real population pressure in the homeland and going to an uncertain future in the colonies would in most cases be a big drop in the standard of living. When America was colonized, it wasn't only the island of Great Britain sending out the colonists. If it had been, the process of colonial development would have been much slower, and even more so if Great Britain didn't have the dense population it had in real life. Vikings never managed to permanently colonize America because their population numbers simply weren't large enough and America was far away.
On this one: The psychological condition of the Númenoreans explains why the king's message would have been so widely popular. Sauron influencing the king through a Ring of Power explains why the king would be propagating the message in the first place. It would have been easy for the king to adhere to the traditions from sheer inertia (after all, those traditions put him at the top), but instead he chose to actively rebel and spread the rebellion. As flagged elsewhere in the thread, Tolkien directly explains how the King's Men faction arose. At length, in a Melian Dialogue style format. And without reference or recourse to a Ring of Power. You mention psychological condition: the debate between the Messengers of Manwë and the Númenóreans is a genuinely interesting study of the psychology of the Númenóreans of that era. The king, and the Númenóreans by extension, are indeed at the top. But it's still not enough for them and therein is the seed of their fall. The King's Men are the first generation to stumble in this regard. Thanks for the link to the article - genuinely fascinating stuff! My personal view is that the author mistakes Tolkien's general reference to 'hints' and 'allusions' in Letter 156 as a cypher for a treasure map leading to specific secrets, which the especially attentive (ie. the author) can uncover. And one such secret is that Ciryatan was the Witch-king. The author also makes a date discrepancy do a lot of heavy lifting in order to conclude that Ciryatan lived for 617 years. Letter 156 also happens to be another good source for Tolkien's conceptualisation of the Fall of the Númenóreans, without reference to any Rings of Power. I think it pays to not stop at the first plausible explanation. That first plausible explanation may not be the whole truth, end of story, especially when the story was still in the process of being developed by Tolkien. The king being in possession of a Ring of Power and his mind influenced by Sauron in no way contradicts the people of Númenor being easily moved to anti-Valar sentiments because of various factors. The king didn't mind-control his entire people; he merely put to voice sentiments that some of the citizens had already been having in secret and many others would find easy to believe in, especially when the message was coming from a position of authority. You may notice that when Sauron finally comes to Númenor, he influences Ar-Pharazôn in exactly the same direction as the old anti-Valar King's Men faction, only this time more extreme. In the intervening time the Overton Window in Númenor had moved a lot, allowing for more radical policies to become thinkable, and Sauron with his personal presence would be able to convince many important people that might be hesitant if it was only the king alone talking about attacking Valinor.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 24, 12:17am
Post #135 of 203
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Witch-king prophecy was really "by the legal suit of a divorce lawyer shall he fall"
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but like most prophecies, things went a bit off the rails and needed to be re-interpreted.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 24, 1:32am
Post #136 of 203
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three lords a leaping with three golden rings
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The assertion that there were powerful Númenórean colonies very early in the timeline requires inventing a new location that isn't Umbar or Pelargir or Vinyalondë and imagining that it somehow got really powerful and important really fast without a mention of its importance anywhere in the source material. No such assertion made and no invention required! I posit merely that those that did exist are plausible candidates to have housed the three "great lords of Númenórean descent" that were suborned by Sauron. As quoted by yourself, the entry for c. II.1800 in the 'Tale of Years' refers to "dominions on the coast" as being established. Just because they're not named doesn't mean I've invented their existence. The feigned annalist has done the work for the reader. The population pressure point is an interesting one and not something I've thought about very much. Many of the colonisation drivers appear to be psychological or about resources or political, eg. the Faithful emigrating to escape persecution. I'm familiar with the following passage ('Akallabêth'):
Thus it came to pass in that time that the Númenóreans first made great settlements upon the west shores of the ancient lands; for their own land seemed to them shrunken, and they had no rest or content therein, and they desired now wealth and dominion in Middle-earth, since the West was denied. This seems to me as more of a psychological driver for colonisation, where something has been denied (Paradise) and restless displacement activity ensues. I'm aware that Tolkien wrote that after the first millennium of the Second Age, the population of Númenor "greatly increased", rising from around two million to fifteen million by the time of the Akallabêth, and that Middle-earth was described as an "outlet" in this regard ('Of the Land and Beasts of Númenor', NoMe). The date range for this growth spurt is so vast (2,000+ years), that I would only be speculating on links between Númenórean demography and specific colonial ventures. At any rate, slightly less speculatively, the Númenóreans throwing themselves into displacement activity, wanting more 'stuff', and population growth of some description taking place need not be mutually exclusive drivers. I've not consciously based any of my arguments around demographic change. My main point is that there is plenty of textual evidence that there were Númenóreans settling in Middle-earth in a suitable timeframe. Building on that, it's then what I reckon to be a relatively mild leap to the assessment that that's how we get to those three 'great lords' who go on to be snapped up by that nice Mr Sauron. I reckon we just have very different criteria in mind as to the circumstances within which a "great lord of Númenórean descent" might attach themselves to or indeed arise in a colonial context. For me, a colony doesn't have to reach Level 36 via 10,000 development points before its first great lord appears as a playable character. You also don't appear to attach any importance to the framing "of Númenórean descent", which strikes me as potentially relevant - although I admit I could be stretching things there. Anyway, I reckon something is possible and you seem to have arrived at that something being impossible. I embrace a 'Ringless' explanation for the tragedy that is the Akallabêth and you're interests appear to lie in an explanation I hadn't previously considered, have genuinely enjoyed reading and, ultimately, find a bit too extratextual and exotic for my personal taste. We therefore diverge, which is part of the Reading Room experience. In being prompted to think about the source material again, I've gone back to a few things I haven't read in a while, and I'm grateful for being reminded of how much I enjoy the textual evolution of the Akallabêth. Speaking of methodology, I guess this bit may go to the heart of things:
I think it pays to not stop at the first plausible explanation. That first plausible explanation may not be the whole truth, end of story, especially when the story was still in the process of being developed by Tolkien. With this kind of stuff, we're all trying a bit of secondary world historiography on for size, a bit of contextual draft sifting, and a bit of conjecture based on our understanding or previous study of primary world history. More or less. I'm not consciously seeking a hidden truth in all of this. And as an arguably pretty boring empiricist historian (purely amateur these days!), I tend to be pretty content with plausibility!
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 24, 6:20pm
Post #137 of 203
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shocked (Shocked!) to find that (this much) discussion is going on in here! Hmmm, Peter Lorre would have made a pretty convincing Gollum, I think . . .
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 24, 6:21pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 24, 7:58pm
Post #138 of 203
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What?! "Cassablanca has been quoted -- round up the usual suspects!"
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"Cassablanca has been quoted -- round up the usual suspects!" So many quotable bits - it never Claude Rains, but it pours. But agree about Peter Lorre.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 24, 9:22pm
Post #139 of 203
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The 'no will but his own' theme is outlined in the LotR chapter you quoted from previously, 'The Stairs of Cirith Ungol', in the context of the growth in power of both the Witch-king and Frodo. As Frodo is observing, in dread, the Witch-king and his host issue forth form Minas Morgul, the Witch-king "halted suddenly" and there was "a pause, a dead silence", followed by:
Maybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley. Frodo's personal struggle with the One Ring ensues but as he earns his fighting draw, a victory in the circumstances, the Witch-king breaks his own vigil and proceeds:
Maybe the elven-hoods deifed his unseen eyes, and the mind of his small enemy, being strengthened, had turned aside his thought. But he was in haste. Already the hour had struck, and at his great Master's bidding he must march with war into the West. Now we have Red Bookery going on, as ever, so ostensibly this is a hobbit with a quill telling us what he thought was going on in the Witch-king's head. However, the theme is the same as Tolkien outlines your quote from 'The Hunt for the Ring': the Witch-king, even when he seems to know something is amiss on his front step (the cheek of these hobbits!), he feels compelled to move on. Would it have killed him to search Imlad Morgul, based on his hunch? He had tens of thousands of soldiers at his disposal right there with him. Well, maybe it wouldn't exactly have killed him to tarry but I'm sure Sauron could have inflicted unpleasantness! At any rate, he must away because that is what he has been commanded to do.* While the pages of the 'The Hunt for the Ring' are open on my desk, there's another snippet in there that reinforces, yet again, the total subjugation of the Witch-king and the rest of the Nine to the master of the One Ring - at least as Saruman understands it. In his desperate converse with the Witch-king who has turned up at the Gate of Isengard to collect in information that Sauron had demanded, Saruman says this:
'I know what you seek, though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord.' There's also some interesting nuance hadn't occurred to me before re-reading 'The Hunt for the Ring'. Not enough to change my mind that the wills of the Nine were enslaved to that of Sauron, as master of the One Ring. That is well-established in the text. It's related to yet another use of the word 'dismay' in association with a reaction on the part of the Witch-king - as picked up elsewhere in thread. Here, it's in this context:
When they [the Nazgûl] came back to the Wold September had come; and there they met messengers from Barad-dûr conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay. The Nine were already carrying out the express instructions of Sauron at this point and have already been described in this vignette as having "no will but his [Sauron's] own. Yet Sauron still feels the need to issue threats. I don't read into this that Sauron mistrusted his chief servants (they were effectively extensions of his own will after all) but it seems he was still not above offering 'incentives' for due compliance. The Witch-king hurrying off to war, despite his apparent sensing of a threat outside Minas Morgul comes back to mind. * Re-reading these three of paragraphs in 'Stairs of Cirith Ungol', I can't help but notice that the Witch-king is called everything but the Witch-king! We have 'the Rider', 'the Lord of the Nine Riders', 'the haggard king', 'the Wraith-lord', 'the Morgul-king', and 'the Wraith-king'.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 24, 9:31pm
Post #140 of 203
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 24, 10:31pm
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The fascinating story of 'Tal-Elmar' (HoMe XII) provides another such glimpse of 'pax Sauronica'. This tale depicts life as arguably less developed and more brutal for the humans living under Sauron's rule, although agriculture is referred to. I'm flitting between a few different sources and periods, which is usually a risky business, but thematically, there's some consistency, I reckon. The people of Agar would have been those who "took refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain", rejecting Sauron's civilization. You may notice that there is no indication that the people of Agar actually worshiped Sauron or took orders from him. They also would not have been in a position to get the benefits of Sauron's rule. (There are also issues with the overall level of reliability, given the status of Tal-Elmar as a combination of two unfinished sections with significant but not wholly clear story changes between the sections.)
These are the most likely candidates for who were the beneficiaries of early Númenórean patronage and largesse. Although no "towns and walls of stone" etc, as per Sauron's sponsorship, are mentioned, agriculture and some degree of settlement formation - "they instructed Men in the sowing of seed and the grinding of grain, in the hewing of wood and the shaping of stone, and in the ordering of their life" - is implied. So basically the Númenoreans made friends with paleolithic hunter-gatherers. Hunter-gatherers in real life have very small populations, limited by what their land can sustain, and also lack infrastructure. This is not the recipe for instant colonies, just add water.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Feb 24, 11:06pm
Post #142 of 203
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The assertion that there were powerful Númenórean colonies very early in the timeline requires inventing a new location that isn't Umbar or Pelargir or Vinyalondë and imagining that it somehow got really powerful and important really fast without a mention of its importance anywhere in the source material. No such assertion made and no invention required! I posit merely that those that did exist are plausible candidates to have housed the three "great lords of Númenórean descent" that were suborned by Sauron. As quoted by yourself, the entry for c. II.1800 in the 'Tale of Years' refers to "dominions on the coast" as being established. Just because they're not named doesn't mean I've invented their existence. The feigned annalist has done the work for the reader. 1800 is only when the colonization efforts really started going. The colonies wouldn't have become large or developed right away, especially with the circumstances in Númenor less favorable of rapid colonization than was the case with America. I think having an unnamed colony or colonies important enough to have genuine "great lords" as permanent residents at a very early point in the timeline is a much bigger stretch than thinking that a king of Númenor could have been influenced by Sauron through a Ring of Power.
The population pressure point is an interesting one and not something I've thought about very much. Many of the colonisation drivers appear to be psychological or about resources or political, eg. the Faithful emigrating to escape persecution. I'm familiar with the following passage ('Akallabêth'): Thus it came to pass in that time that the Númenóreans first made great settlements upon the west shores of the ancient lands; for their own land seemed to them shrunken, and they had no rest or content therein, and they desired now wealth and dominion in Middle-earth, since the West was denied. This seems to me as more of a psychological driver for colonisation, where something has been denied (Paradise) and restless displacement activity ensues. I'm aware that Tolkien wrote that after the first millennium of the Second Age, the population of Númenor "greatly increased", rising from around two million to fifteen million by the time of the Akallabêth, and that Middle-earth was described as an "outlet" in this regard ('Of the Land and Beasts of Númenor', NoMe). The date range for this growth spurt is so vast (2,000+ years), that I would only be speculating on links between Númenórean demography and specific colonial ventures. At any rate, slightly less speculatively, the Númenóreans throwing themselves into displacement activity, wanting more 'stuff', and population growth of some description taking place need not be mutually exclusive drivers. Rising from 2 to 15 million is only three doublings. That's really very slow in real world terms, but small family sizes and late ages of marriage would have had lot to do with this. This slow growth would have been a significant limiting factor on the colonization. Colonists are born to parents too. For all its fame as a colonial power, Númenor's marriage customs hindered its colonization efforts a lot.
I've not consciously based any of my arguments around demographic change. My main point is that there is plenty of textual evidence that there were Númenóreans settling in Middle-earth in a suitable timeframe. Building on that, it's then what I reckon to be a relatively mild leap to the assessment that that's how we get to those three 'great lords' who go on to be snapped up by that nice Mr Sauron. I reckon we just have very different criteria in mind as to the circumstances within which a "great lord of Númenórean descent" might attach themselves to or indeed arise in a colonial context. For me, a colony doesn't have to reach Level 36 via 10,000 development points before its first great lord appears as a playable character. You also don't appear to attach any importance to the framing "of Númenórean descent", which strikes me as potentially relevant - although I admit I could be stretching things there. Anyway, I reckon something is possible and you seem to have arrived at that something being impossible. I embrace a 'Ringless' explanation for the tragedy that is the Akallabêth and you're interests appear to lie in an explanation I hadn't previously considered, have genuinely enjoyed reading and, ultimately, find a bit too extratextual and exotic for my personal taste. We therefore diverge, which is part of the Reading Room experience. In being prompted to think about the source material again, I've gone back to a few things I haven't read in a while, and I'm grateful for being reminded of how much I enjoy the textual evolution of the Akallabêth. A village chief of an isolated village is a very important person as far as the villagers are concerned, but I rather think Sauron targeted individuals that he himself considered sufficiently great lords. He would have pursued individuals with geopolitical significance.
Speaking of methodology, I guess this bit may go to the heart of things: I think it pays to not stop at the first plausible explanation. That first plausible explanation may not be the whole truth, end of story, especially when the story was still in the process of being developed by Tolkien. With this kind of stuff, we're all trying a bit of secondary world historiography on for size, a bit of contextual draft sifting, and a bit of conjecture based on our understanding or previous study of primary world history. More or less. I'm not consciously seeking a hidden truth in all of this. And as an arguably pretty boring empiricist historian (purely amateur these days!), I tend to be pretty content with plausibility! History is made of chains of cause and effect, and those form a complicated weave. It is inaccurate to say that, say, the French Revolution was caused by this one thing, end of story, no more needs to be said, when there would have been multiple contributing factors and also that "one thing" would have followed from various other causes. I think Tolkien was trying to imitate this phenomenon with his fake history even though obviously he couldn't reach the complexity of real history.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 24, 11:28pm
Post #143 of 203
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I bet NEB could find many more. But thanks!
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 24, 11:28pm)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 24, 11:38pm
Post #144 of 203
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would be pretty dismal. I wish we could see Peter in that role. I suppose AI could sort of do it, but only Lorre can really be Lorre.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 24, 11:38pm)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 24, 11:48pm
Post #145 of 203
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"We have 'the Rider', 'the Lord of the Nine Riders', 'the haggard king', 'the Wraith-lord', 'the Morgul-king', and 'the Wraith-king'. "
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Very interesting! Like one of the great composers, who can change moods 4 times in 3 lines of music and make it feel perfectly natural. I never noticed that naming-variation as such, before; and it seems to me it could come across almost as labored, or too deliberately contrived, but instead it seems perfectly natural to the point where it didn't really catch my attention--and I must have read the books close to 30 or 40 times since my first encounter.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 24, 11:48pm)
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 25, 3:11am
Post #146 of 203
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The people of Agar would have been those who "took refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain", rejecting Sauron's civilization. You may notice that there is no indication that the people of Agar actually worshiped Sauron or took orders from him. They also would not have been in a position to get the benefits of Sauron's rule. I've always taken the Folk of Agar and indeed the neighbouring Folk of Udul to be people under the rule of Sauron. I'm questioning that view now and am very much appreciative of your steer! Taking a look at the two texts that CJRT had to work with, we have the following:
He [Tal-Elmar] had seen the sun sink into the sea before, yet never before had he seen it so. He knew in a flash (as if it came from that fire itself) that he had seen it so [? he was called,] that it meant something more than the approach of the 'King's time', the dark. This suggests that the people of Agar were at least aware of the 'King of the dark', which is not automatically the same thing as allegiance or worship - very much to your point and more on that anon. The prime candidate is Sauron and this relationship is picked out by CJRT in note 14 to this tale, cross-refencing a direct mention of Sauron later in the text. What might the interactions of the peoples mentioned in the tale itself tell us then? Past wars and foreshadowed ones indicate that the people of Agar have fought against a people who are described as "fair, tall" with "white skins and bright eyes" - the 'Fell Folk', who appear to be the same as, or related to, the 'Cruels' of the North, an enemy group and future threat named later in the story. This is in contrast to the Folk of Agar, who are described as "broad, swarthy, short" and "swart sturdy folk". The Númenóreans who appear towards the end of the story are said to be in alliance with the 'Cruels' in an effort to "drive out the Dark People and make a settlement to threaten the King [Sauron]." The Númenóreans that Tal-Elmar meets consistently characterise the Agar and peoples like them as 'Men of the Dark', 'Dark People', 'people of the Dark' "who are our enemies, being servants of the Enemy." Even so, Tal-Elmar insists on making a distinction of sorts:
We fear the Dark, but we do not love it or serve it. At least so do some of us. So, what is going on here? This looks like a classic bit of Númenórean ethnography, with all its limitations, as set out in the 'Of Dwarves & Men' essay (also in HoMe XII) and articulated by Faramir in his Númenórean history lecture at Henneth Annûn ('The Window on the West', LotR). In this schema, humankind was duly divided up into 'High Men' (ie. themselves), Middle Men and the Men of Darkness. In the context of 'Tal-Elmar', I don't reckon it's too much of a leap to understand the 'Cruels' as Middle Men and the folk of Agar and Udul etc as Men of Darkness. And the 'Cruels' very much come across as proto-Edainic peoples who the Númenóreans could choose to identify as distant kin - descendants of those related to the Folk of Hador, for example. The people of Agar similarly are described in ways that recall the Easterlings of the First Age ("short and broad... their skins were swart or sallow" - 'Of the Ruin of Beleriand', The Sil). Does this mean that the peoples of Agar and Udul were part of Sauron's empire? The Númenóreans in this story seem to think so. But then again, they had got it very wrong with the peoples of Minhiriath and Enedwaith, treating them as foes when in fact they were related to the Folk of Haleth and therefore were distant relatives of the Númenóreans themselves. And Tal-Elmar is defensive on this characterisation, asserting that not all of his people served or loved the Dark. And what of the wars that are mentioned? Anything further to be gleaned there? The Fell Folk have been pressing on the "east-marches" of the "ancient dwellers in the lands" - of which the Hills of Agar are a far western portion. Possibly around the mouths of the Anduin, the Morthond or the Isen; or perhaps the Langstrand, as Tolkien mused. I could even speculate that his reference to the "green hills of Agar" may be a deliberate or unintended reference to what became Pinnath Gelin (lit. 'Green Hills' in Sindarin), above the Langstrand. Some of the Folk of Agar have, in the past, enlisted in armies led by the 'North King', who fought the aforementioned Fell Folk (Tal-Elmar's ancestors). This North King may or may not be connected to the 'Dark Kings', whose reigns are used to date the story itself, from the perspective of the 'Wild Men' - who are synonymous with the Men of Darkness in Númenórean reckoning. Perhaps Tolkien is drawing on his Akallabêth narrative here, wherein can be found:
And after the victory of the Lords of the West those of the evil Men who were not destroyed fled back into the east, where many of their race were still wandering in the unharvested lands, wild and lawless, refusing alike the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth. And the evil Men came among them, and cast over them a shadow of fear, and they took them for kings. These 'evil Men' appear to have been the remnant of the Easterlings who served Morgoth in his Wars of Beleriand, and 'Dark Kings' seems like a pretty good term for them. Moreover, as stated above, there appear to have been some similarities in the descriptors used by Tolkien to describe the Easterlings and the people of Agar. But before I get speculatively too carried away, it's worth reminding myself that a similar descriptor was used for other people living not so far from most of the candidate-locations for Agar, albeit millennia later, specifically the Men of Lossarnach ("shorter and somewhat swarthier" than other Gondorians: 'Minas Tirith', LotR). With so little to go on, these Dark Kings may or may not have been rulers who the people of Agar had to accommodate or chose to serve in their armies, and they may or may not have been linked, in Tolkien's mind, to his conceptualisation of Easterling kingships amongst the post-Beleriand ruins and wilds. Fun speculation but I haven't moved things on very much! As to whether I agree with you on "there is no indication that the people of Agar actually worshiped Sauron or took orders from him", I've defo moved closer to your conclusion, even if I'm not quite as unequivocal as you. On reflection, I now appreciate that Agar cannot, as I previously thought, be simply described as part of Sauron's empire. Tal-Elmar's concept of the world around him is that Sauron 'rules' the dark ("the King's time") but the people of Agar do not uniformly "love it [the Dark] or serve it". Similarly, that some of the Agar folk had fought in wars against proto-Edainic peoples did not automatically make them servants or worshippers of Sauron. From the point of view of Agar and whoever the North King was, the Fell Folk were encroaching on their lands. And worse was to come, via an alliance of conquest and colonisation between the Númenóreans and the Cruels. To return to the 'Akallabêth', as constructed for The Silmarillion, we know that Sauron once ruled over some of the coastlands of Middle-earth and only "withdrew from the coasts" once the Númenóreans turned their own hand to establishing "Great harbours and strong towers" beyond their homeland. Perhaps the likes of Agar and Udul were once within Sauron's direct orbit but he was, by the time of Tal-Elmar, a relatively distant prospect - even if his 'kingship' of the dark was something that Tal-Elmar and his kin felt they had to take into account, cosmologically. Sadly, for a story that was designed to see "the Númenóreans from the point of view of the Wild Men", it's the point of view of the Númenóreans that dominates in the short amount of text that we have. Whatever the precise nature of the relationship between the people of Agar and Sauron's dominion, the Númenóreans in this story are in the early stages of plans to expel or kill them because they see them generically as servants of Sauron, the Enemy. The Númenóreans who interrogate Tal-Elmar are interested in whether the Agar folk might be friendly but still see them through the lens of 'Men of Darkness'. To return to the tragedy of the Númenórean interaction with the forest-dwellers of Minhiriath and Enedwaith, perhaps, like these people, the Agar folk would end up fighting for Sauron, even if that wasn't their default setting at this time. Númenórean colonisation, at least in the tale of 'Tal-Elmar', did not bode well for the locals and in them, Sauron might cynically recruit useful canon fodder, just as he did in Minhiriath, on account of Númenórean abuses. A final reflection that I don't think has much bearing on the overall picture but it was something that occurred to me en route. The first bit of your conclusion:
The people of Agar would have been those who "took refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain", rejecting Sauron's civilization Agar is described as "a fenced town... in the green hills", with crops in the surrounding countryside. The Agar folk feel a bit more domesticated than a people taking "refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain" ('Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'). Perhaps closer to the mark is when Tal-Elmar's father, Hazad defines Agar as distinct, and superior to, a group of enemies who he describes as:
The wild men of the mountains and the woods, but these only those who stray alone need fear. Suffice to say, I think this distinction would have been lost on the Númenóreans of that era, who likely would have lumped these 'wild men' in with the Agar folk as 'Men of Darkness'! And many thanks again for prompting me to look at Agar in a different light :)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 25, 3:32am
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I've wondered about the title changes too, but
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they seem organically related, and like you, I only noticed the differences after many reads when someone pointed them out. It might be Tolkien's memory taking a stab at something he half-remembers (been there, done that). "Those short people...the halflings..the wabbits...no, what were they? habits?...harfoots?...no, hobbits!" OK, we might struggle with "wabbits," and possibly "those furry-footed overgrown rodent people," but the other variations are close enough that we don't blink, similar to the King-Witch-rider's varying appellations.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Feb 25, 3:45pm
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Priceless. If I had to say it, I would
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venture to wager that they sat down at your table at a wayside pub and vented the whole thing to you in frustration, in between hissing for pints.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 25, 6:25pm
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 25, 6:35pm
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So I think we're left with the Nazgul being 'slaves to Sauron's will' (essential as they are the only servants who could be trusted to hand over the Ring if they got it). And yet they have some autonomy (essential if they are to operate independently in the field, rather than being remote control drones of Sauron's mind). That remaining autonomy brings with it some culpability, and some need for Sauron to issue threats (aside, perhaps from just enjoying doing so). That all seems just about to hang together. And anyway, there is always boggling. You reminded me of an excellent analysis (though with one bit I don't uuderstand or don't agree with if I have understood it) From Paul H Kocher:
...But, like Marlowe's Hell, Mordor has no geographical limits and is wherever its victims are. These victims not only are morally debased and physically dematerialized but also drag out their days in torment. A mortal who keeps one of the rings of power lives longer, Gandalf tells Frodo at the start, "but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness." One of the most dreadful, most pitiable things about the Nazgûl is their cry of lament: "A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature." The despair in it is a weapon that Sauron uses to spread hopelessness among the people of Minas Tirith. Angmar especially, the leader of the Nine, is known as the Captain of Despair, who drives even his own troops mad with terror during the siege. He cannot induce it in others unless he first feels it in himself, and in the last analysis it may even come fromsome corner of Sauron's own withered conscience. When Angmar threatens Eowyn on the battlefield it is not with death: Sauron "will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind left naked to the Lidless Eye." The Nazgûl chief is no stranger to these places of physical and spiritual torture, nor to Sauron's delight in them, somewhere at the heart of the darkness which cloaks him. Master of Middle-Earth by Paul H Kocher, Del Ray 1972 The bit I'm not sure about is "He cannot induce it [despair and/or possibly terror] in others unless he first feels it in himself, and in the last analysis it may even come fromsome corner of Sauron's own withered conscience." I can in fact imagine someoen inducing despair and or terror in me just by being extremely frightening or seemingly unopposable. I don't see why they would necessarily be despairing or terrified themselves. But a lovely passage about the wretched existence of the Nazgul
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 26, 2:39pm
Post #152 of 203
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Why 'The Witch King' at all, indeed?
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The WK is a bit witchy I suppose - he's one of the few characters in LOTR to use magic quite overtly. But anyone expecting the Nazgul to ride broomsticks or brew porions in couldrons, or keep cats or taods as pets, other witchy tropes: they are going to be disappointed. Maybe it just sounded good & look no further? Or maybe we have The Witch King in opposition ot the other main magic users, the Wizards? Or maybe other forum members have better ideas?
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Feb 26, 4:29pm
Post #153 of 203
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The WK is a bit witchy I suppose - he's one of the few characters in LOTR to use magic quite overtly. But anyone expecting the Nazgul to ride broomsticks or brew porions in couldrons, or keep cats or taods as pets, other witchy tropes: they are going to be disappointed. Maybe it just sounded good & look no further? Or maybe we have The Witch King in opposition ot the other main magic users, the Wizards? Or maybe other forum members have better ideas? It was the Witch-king who summoned the Wights to inhabit the tombs of the Barrow-downs. Is that witchy enough?
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 26, 11:11pm
Post #154 of 203
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And I don't have an answer! I've done a fair bit of scouring since you posted this and have, so far, turned up not much at all. Thought I'd share this 'not much' with you though :) For the majority of the drafts of LotR, our Witch-king is referred to as the 'Wizard-king' and, less frequently, the 'Sorcerer-king'. The term 'Witch-king' doesn't appear at all, as far as I can make out, until you get to the drafts of the Appendices, where he is referred to as the Witch-king, the Black Captain the Lord of the Ringwraiths or the Sorcerer-king. 'Wizard-king' disappears from use. An interesting distinction can perhaps be made when 'Witch-king' is used in the draft Appendices. It appears to be specifically associated with the Angmar period of this particular villain's career. Or to give that place its eventual full title, as per the standard published map of Middle-earth: 'the Witch-realm of Angmar'. Thus we have:
The chief of these, the wielders of the Nine Rings, becomes the Witch-king of the realm of Angmar... ['The Tale of Years of the Third Age', HoMe XII] And:
But it was found later [after the fall of Angmar] that the Witch-king had fled away secretly southwards, and had entered Minas Ithil (now called Minas Morgul) and become Lord of the Ringwraiths. [The Heirs of Elendil', HoMe XII] This associative naming makes it into the final version of Appendix A. But in the final version of the main body of LotR, Tolkien also refers to the Lord of the Nazgûl as the Witch-king in multiple contexts. In trying to make sense of this, the 'Witch-king' appears to enter into usage specific to Angmar but thereafter remains in use to refer to the Lord of the Nazgûl, even following the collapse of Angmar as a 'Witch-realm'. As to why 'Wizard-king' gets abandoned, despite being the primary name for much of the drafting process, I reckon you've already hit on that. The term 'Wizard' becomes exclusively associated with Gandalf and his order. Having a key villain continuing to be called the Wizard-king would only confuse matters - although Tolkien did play with the idea of the Wizard-king being "a renegade of his [Gandalf's] own order" ('The Siege of Gondor', HoMe VIII). As to why Tolkien alighted on 'witch' as his main name-stem, this probably goes back to the fact that our author was a linguist and one who appears to have delighted in reintroducing or repurposing the archaic roots of English. I'm going to assume that he knew full-well that in his lifetime, the term 'witch' would have been largely associated in popular culture with female practitioners of dark magic. However, the etymology of the word allows for both male and female witches (Old English: wicca & wicce respectively). 'Witch-king' was therefore totally legit, linguistically. And perhaps gave Tolkien a little thrill as he confounded readers with his etymological correctness! In the same vein, there's his attraction to using 'dwarrows' as the plural of 'dwarf', even though he didn't give into temptation on that one (Letters 17 & 25), apart from the lone reference to Dwarrowdelf, the Westron name for Moria. Edit / postscript: I probably should have just gone straight to Hammond & Scull (The Lord of the Rings, A Readers Companion), as they set out much more eloquently the etymology of witch, in the context of the Witch-king!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
(This post was edited by Felagund on Feb 26, 11:22pm)
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squire
Gondolin

Feb 27, 1:28am
Post #155 of 203
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I admit I thought about a little HoME-dive in response to NoWiz's question, but it seemed kind of daunting. And then you did it! I love the idea of Tolkien clinging to and playing with the origins of 'witch' as including both men and women. But I also never gave the phrase "Witch-King" a second thought in all the years I've been reading and re-reading LotR. The meaning is clear and obvious - no one thinks "Witch = female but this one is referred to as 'he'! What's up with that??" Tolkien pulls another one off.
squire online: Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 27, 4:47am
Post #156 of 203
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Now that we're scrutinizing (and boggling) every word, I'm glad Tolkien abandoned Wizard-king, which seems a mouthful. And while I'm no witch expert, I'm a bit surprised that "witch" was deemed almost exclusively for women, since it's always stuck in my mind that the Salem witch trials killed men as well as women under the umbrella term "witch," and that happened also in witch-hunts in Europe.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 27, 12:00pm
Post #157 of 203
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Thanks for all that great stuff! In response to squire and CuriousG I was wondering how witches had popularly become female by trope, and that may have led me to something further. Aside from keeping the WK distinct from the wizards, I think we might have words that are historically associated with two types of magic (witch versus wizard, from wise-ard): [Concerning an apparent shift in attitudes towards magic in the 15th Century, from scepticism to fear to a persecution.] One explanation offered by historian Michael D. Bailey is that at some point during the 14th and 15th centuries, religious officials perhaps unwittingly conflated two distinct traditions: “learned” magic and “common” magic. The common kind of magic required no formal training, was widely known, could be practised by both men and women, and was usually associated with love, sex and healing. By contrast, learned magic came to Europe from the east and featured in the “magic manuals” that circulated among educated men whom Richard Kieckhefer described as members of a “clerical underworld”. ... While men also feature in the infamous 15th century witch-hunting manual Malleus Maleficarum (The Hammer of the Witches), the work has long been recognised as deeply misogynistic. It suggests that women’s perceived lack of intelligence made them submissive to demons. One section reads: Just as through the first defect in their [women’s] intelligence they are more prone to abjure the faith; so through their second defect of inordinate passions … they inflict various vengeances through witchcraft. Wherefore it is no wonder that so great a number of witches exist in this sex. By the end of the Middle Ages, a view of women as especially susceptible to witchcraft had emerged. ... The idea that women might have been dabbling with the demonic magic previously associated with educated males, however inaccurate it may have been, was frightening. Neither men nor women were allowed to engage with demons, but while men stood a chance at resisting demonic control because of their education, women did not. Their perceived lack of intelligence, together with contemporary notions regarding their “passions”, meant that they were understood as more likely to make pacts of “fidelity to devils” whom they could not control – so, in the eyes of the medieval church, women were more easily disposed to witchcraft than men. The evolution of the medieval witch – and why she’s usually a woman by Dr J Farrell, Lecturer in Medieval History, University of Exeter Now of course witches aren't the only scary folklore creatures or monsters that are female by trope. There is of course a considerable literature on why that might be! Here's a starter review. And most likely marginal and fairly powerless figures in society were easier to accuse of witchcraft if they displeased someone in some more powerful. By contrast Rudolf II was a notorious fan of astrology and alchemy. Gonna call him a witch? Well he's Holy Roman Emperor (1576–1612), King of Hungary and Croatia (as Rudolf I, 1572–1608), King of Bohemia (1575–1608/1611) and Archduke of Austria (1576–1608). You'll need an army to make that stick, and would probably only do that for realpolitik reasons. I beleive the Pope restricted himself to cautioning Rudolf about a coin on which Ruldolf appears in alchemist's garb. Now we should hold our horses (demonic or otherwise) a little here. I'm not suggesting that because all this folklore exists, we can assume Tolkien was basing his work upon it. Ourside the writing of fan-fiction one should not import stuff willy-nilly or wholesale into Middle-earth and expect to have discovered something valuable. Indeed, not only do we have the Witch King as a against-trope male witch (if he is that) but the person who might most easily find themselves in trouble with any passing Witchfinder General is Galadriel. And where witchy associations are ascribed to her (rumours have reached Rohan) they are quickly derided as ignorance. Nevertheless, it could be that readers' associations from history help "witch king" rather than "Wizard king" along as a sensible name for our chief Black Rider.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 27, 12:08pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 27, 12:07pm
Post #158 of 203
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Probably an unanswerable question within Middle-earth! But thinking about witches vs. wizards, I was reminded of this, from Anita Mason's superb novel The Illusionist. She describes attitudes to magic in 1st Century AD Judea. It sets up the world in which her main character (and indeed Biblical character) , the magician Simon Magus, operates:
“Magic was prohibited in those days, on the assumption that it worked... [But] not all magic was illegal. It was an open-minded age, and a thing was judged largely on its intended effects. A spell to cast harm on a neighbour was punishable; a spell to take away toothache was not. If it had been, many doctors would have been seriously inconvenienced. Magic was part of the fabric of life, and a great deal of it was not recognized as magic at all. It shaded imperceptibly into religion on the one hand and science on the other - inevitably, since it had begotten them. It was practised by a strange assortment of people...Since the small fry of the magical world were limited by their capacities to catering for the baser needs of human nature - a love potion, as curse, a spell to make a woman tell the truth - while those of greater aptitude could afford to use their gifts benignly, the shadowy distinction between permitted and forbidden magic tended regrettably to resolve itself into a class distinction, in which the artisans were nearly always on the wrong side of the law and the great masters were above it. ... Since white magic was believed to be performed by gods and black or illegal magic by demons, this sort of assertion brought the argument about legality into an area where it could not be settled. For the supernatural agents who performed the magician's will did not normally identify themselves to the beholders. Thus a celebrated exorcist was several times accused of casting out devils by the power of Beelzebub. ... Thus between legal and illegal, black and white, god and demon, the boundaries were hopelessly confused. Most people did not bother about this confusion: it did not appear to them to be a problem. To the magician, as to the prostitute, the occasional severity of the law was an occupational hazard. To Simon Magus, who saw very clearly that one man's harm is another man's blessing, and who operated in a world of forces where there is no good and evil but only power, the illogicalities of the law were the predictable outcome of a system in which men of little imagination made rules for their betters. One idea which does not seem to have occurred to the lawmakers of the time was that magic should be anyone's property. It was simply there, as the air was there. The principle that the same act, performed with the same intent, should be licit or illicit depending on the identity of the magician, would have been found incomprehensible. It would, of course, have simplified the situation at a stroke. Perhaps they did not take magic very seriously in those days.” The last sentence, with its tone of irony, leads on to the idea that the Church made exactly that change early in the era of Christianity as a mass religion: performing magic would get you into trouble, but to perform an act with the same consequences by miracle would not. And (relevant to wizards vs witches) Mason's "the shadowy distinction between permitted and forbidden magic tended regrettably to resolve itself into a class distinction, in which the artisans were nearly always on the wrong side of the law and the great masters were above it." (BTW, I've used that Mason quote before, if it looks a bit famiiliar, for example in this discussion about magic (or not) and Galadriel's mirror
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 27, 12:14pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 27, 12:10pm
Post #159 of 203
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But... which kingdom was the Witch Kingdom? Nah, I know, it was Angband, located near modern Witchita, probably.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 27, 12:31pm
Post #160 of 203
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Granny Weatherwax has been in touch to point out that this witch/ wizard distinction is very much there but subverted in the works of Sir Terry Pratchett, who was a British fantasy author character Granny created. In the Discworld novels, the Wizards are a parody of university academics: frightfully lever, but a bit otherworldly and very much given to departmental politics (including by murder) . Their title is said to be derived from the archaic word "Wys-ars", meaning one who, at bottom, is very wise [1]. The witches are a more practical lot, Granny says.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 28, 6:50pm
Post #161 of 203
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Witch-king nomenclature or what's in a name: what he does; what he is
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Some thoughts... Wizard-king: I do magic; I'm a boss. Sorceror-king: I do magic; I'm a boss. Witch-king of Angmar: I do magic; I'm the boss of Angmar. Witch-king: I do magic; if you ask me how I lost Angmar, so help me Morgoth I'll Black Breath you! Black Captain: I'm the boss of the Nazgûl and my Master's armies; I do wars. I also like wearing black. Lord of the Nazgûl / Ringwraiths / Nine: I'm the boss of these other undead guys. Wraith-lord / Wraith-king: I'm undead; and a boss. Morgul-king: I lost Angmar but that's okay coz now I'm the boss of Minas Morgul. And I'm totally cool with that. All the time. the haggard king: rude! Would love to see how you look after 4 millennia of unlife. Also, I used to tour with Iggy Pop and Keith Richards. Lord of carrion: also rude. Anyway, don't knock it until you try it. Dwimmerlaik: er, what primitive gibberish is this guy from Rohan saying? Oh sh*t, he's a she...!
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 28, 7:31pm
Post #162 of 203
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Ah yes, I unerstand it now :) //
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Feb 28, 9:13pm
Post #163 of 203
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Would I be right in thinking...
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Would I be right in thinking that being The Black Captain would only be 9/15 = 3/5 as good as being The All Black Captain?
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Feb 28, 9:26pm
Post #164 of 203
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As an Australian, I feel that the polite answer is "I couldn't possibly comment."
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Morthoron
Hithlum

Mar 1, 4:00am
Post #165 of 203
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It was the Witch-king who summoned the Wights to inhabit the tombs of the Barrow-downs. Is that witchy enough? The Proto-Germanic wikkjaz is cognate to "necromancer" (one who wakes the dead). So our Oxfordian philologist most certainly dug in the roots to link the Wights to the WiKi.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Mar 1, 2:42pm
Post #166 of 203
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Ah, yes, the famous last thoughts. //
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 1, 4:24pm
Post #167 of 203
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Ah! Thank you. He must have had
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an enormous amount of pleasure digging all that up. Wonder what the proto-Indo-European is?
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 1, 4:25pm)
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Morthoron
Hithlum

Mar 1, 4:45pm
Post #168 of 203
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Being a Certified Half-assed Interwebz Philologist (CHIP)...
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Proto-Indo-European root *weyk- , "which is thought to have a general meaning related to 'to bend, to weave, to be active'." Intriguing how the continued definers for the modern "witch" refer back to conjuring, and even the oldest precedents indicate a spiritual weaving or bending, and the other undercurrent of being "strong", "lively", "active", as it relates to the expending of energy in order to do this weaving and bending, and an arcane knowledge or wisdom to do the task: weik/weyk OE: wican (to bend) from which MdE weak, wicker and witch elm OS: wican - wikan, OHG: wichan, wicken (to bend) ON: vikja (bend) vika (to fold) weid/wid L: video videre (to see); saga (female witch)> MdE Sage Sagacious G: wissen (to know); witken (to exercise ones knowledge) E: wit (knowledge); witan (to know) witega (seer magician, prophet, sorcerer) ON:, vitugr, vitka, vekka (vekke) (wise one) wikke [wikke pertains to magic and sorcery only.] MG: wikken (to predict) OHG: wicken (to work magic) wikkerie(witchery) LS: wiken, wicken. wigelen and wichelen (conjuring; soothsaying) ; wikker, wichler (fortune-telling) ; wikkerske (witch) ; wichelie (sorcery) OE: wicca(m.), wicce (f.)(witch); wiccian (to work sorcery, bewitch) wicce-craeft (witchcraft) ME: witche and MdE: witch
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Mar 1, 4:51pm)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 1, 5:35pm
Post #169 of 203
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"Strong", "lively", "active", and therefor the Yorkshire "wick" meaning (I think) "alive." Is "LS" late Saxon? Got the others.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 1, 5:36pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 1, 7:10pm
Post #170 of 203
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Do we get "wicked" as a relation to all those earlier words -- perhaps from stuff wot those wiccans (allegedly) do? Slander as regards the Wiccans I've met, of course.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 1, 7:24pm
Post #171 of 203
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I thought black was a slimming color. Those All Blacks look kinda big. //
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Mar 2, 9:23am
Post #172 of 203
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I believe so but Morthoron is better placed to confirm, I reckon!
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 2, 2:19pm
Post #173 of 203
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Yes indeed. They could manage an impressive "flying tackle hug", you'd have thought. //
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Mar 2, 10:05pm
Post #174 of 203
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good magic; bad magic - practitioner nomenclature
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Reading this excerpt from Mason and your previous post citing Farrell reminded me that there's something of a distinction in Middle-earth between types of 'magic - or exercising of 'power', if that fits better. I don't have electronic copies of any of Tolkien's text, so haven't done anything as methodical as a word search. Apologies if I've skipped over any references that might illustrate things to the contrary and/or better! Tolkien elaborated on 'magic' in his secondary world relatively sparely and some of the best discussion took place in his correspondence, notably (but not exclusively) in Letters 131 and 155. A distinction is drawn between magic that is used "sparingly" for "specific beneficent purposes" versus that which is used to "terrify and subjugate" (Letter 155); magic that is for the purposes of "Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous reforming of Creation" (Letter 131). The magic used by or associated with the Elves and Gandalf falls on the 'good' side of the ledger and the magic used by Dark Lords and their adherents is associated with 'machinery', in the sense of it being used to "bulldoze both people and things". Motive is at the heart of things. Turning then to the nomenclature of 'magic-users' and their motives in this secondary world, the Witch-king is part of this divide. First to 'wizards' though: wizards and wizardry appear to be generally associated with forces for good, even if one of the main wizards turns traitor and another is, er best known for being accidentally helpful and portrayed by the author as on the spectrum of failure. The 'order' of wizards itself, in origin and purpose, is to promote resistance to evil in Middle-earth. Tolkien also marks out the use of the word 'wizard' as fundamentally distinct, in the sense that they were 'angelic' in nature - Maiar in emissary form:
Their name, as related to Wise, is an Englishing of their Elvish name, and is used throughout as utterly distinct from Sorcerer or Magician. [Letter 131]
There are no precise opposites to the Wizards - a translation (perhaps not suitable but throughout distinguished from other 'magician' terms)... [Letter 144] This association becomes clearer cut after Tolkien abandoned his use of 'Wizard-king' to describe the character who becomes known as the Witch-king. I note that there are inevitably exceptions to my interpretation of Tolkien's 'rule'. For example, Sauron's dual with Huan features the line "no wizardry or spell [of Sauron's]... could overthrow Huan of Valinor" ('Of Beren & Lúthien', The Sil). Although The Hobbit is a difficult comparator, in the sense that it significantly pre-dates any nuance Tolkien may have been seeking to establish in his much larger version of his secondary world, I'll pull out for reference the following to help further illustrate the distinctions in play:
It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood. ['The Last Stage'] There is a contrast between 'white wizards' and 'good magic' on the one hand, and on the other an entity whose very title reeks of 'evil magic' - necromancy. With his base a 'dark hold', no less. Necromancy is explicitly described as transgressive in 'Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar' (HoMe X), in the context of those who dabble in the world of Unbodied spirits:
To attempt to master them [Unbodied spirits] and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant. Necromancy seems pretty clear cut, in terms of the allegiance and motives of those who use it. Although not explicitly called a necromancer to the best of my knowledge, the Witch-king effectively operates as one, as the mastermind behind the infestation of Tyrn Gorthad with "evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur" (Appendix A, LotR); and again, when he "roused" the Barrow-wights during his hunt for 'Baggins', centuries later ('The Hunt for the Ring', Unfinished Tales). The 'witch' prefix of this character's name-title is, by extension, associated with the practise of evil magic. A 'Witch-realm', as Angmar is described, is similarly a place of evil. 'Sorcery' in Middle-earth has similar connotations. The Witch-king is described as the 'Sorcerer-king' and his post-Angmar abode is Minas Morgul, literally 'Tower of (Black) Sorcery'. And just in case we missed the not so subtle hint: his Master's former headquarters (the "dark hold" mentioned in The Hobbit), Dol Guldur is the 'Hill of Sorcery'. The practice of sorcery is also associated with the fall into corruption of at least some of the nine men ensnared by Sauron, with his 'gifting' of Nine Rings of Power:
Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. Other mentions of sorcery that did not make the final version of the Appendices of LotR are worth citing, in the context of the Witch-king's long campaign out of Angmar to destroy the Dúnedain of the North:
In Rhudaur an evil folk, workers of sorcery, subjects of Angmar slay the remnants of the Dúnedain and build dark forts in the hills. ['The Heirs of Elendil', HoMe XII]
...but in Rhudaur for long there dwelt an evil people out of the North, much given to sorcery. ['The Tale of Years of the Third Age', HoMe XII] And 'sorcery' is also used as a pejorative for 'magic' that is misunderstood as evil. The main reference in this regard is in the context of how the Rohirrim view Lórien and Galadriel [Éomer, replying to Aragorn]:
'Few escape her [the "Lady in the Golden Wood's"] nets, they say. These are strange days! But if you have her favour, then you also are net-weavers and sorcerers, maybe.' ['The Riders of Rohan', LotR] To drive the message home, the Rohirric name for Lórien is 'Dwimordene', literally 'Vale of Illusion', with the stem -dwim also used in other words to describe malign and supernatural entities or places, notably Dwimmerlaik (fittingly used by Éowyn to describe the Witch-king: 'work of necromancy' or 'spectre') and Dwimorberg ('Haunted Mountain'). Nothing good is meant in these usages! To round out the catalogue of magic-user nomenclature in Middle-earth, Tolkien occasionally uses the word 'magician'. Magicians are described as using magia "for their own power" (Letter 155), and thus fall into the same category as 'necromancer', 'witch' and 'sorcerer'. What I haven't been able to find and am surprised not to have is Tolkien using the word 'warlock' to describe a magic-user who is in the 'evil camp'. Particularly given the Old English etymology: waerloga ('oath-breaker' or 'deceiver'). A warlock is sometimes described as a male witch and given that Tolkien put down his own 'purist' marker in regard of 'witch' being perfectly applicable to males and females, perhaps he saw no need to throw in warlocks as well. The word 'enchanter' doesn't appear either, as far as I can make out. Even though 'enchantment' does occur occasionally, for example in the arts exercised by Lúthien and Eöl. If someone turns up a mention to either word in the legendarium please post it!
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 3, 2:52am
Post #175 of 203
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Every respectable rugby fan in NZ knows the real temptation in LOTR wasn't for power but the desire to deliver flying tackle hugs: From Three Is Company: It looked like the black shade of a horse led by a smaller All Black shadow. The All Black shadow stood close to the point where they had left the path, and it swayed from side to side. Frodo thought he heard the sound of scrum. The shadow bent to the ground, and then began to haka. Once more the desire to tackle someone came over Frodo; but this time it was stronger than before. So strong that, almost before he realized what he was doing, his body crouched, ready to spring and fly: this time to tackle and then to hug.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 3, 12:48pm
Post #176 of 203
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Thanks for this helpful analysis! What it reinforces for me is that it probably not very productive to imagine there are distinct schools or types of magical practitioners. Not like there are in some Tolkien-influenced things - Dungeons & Dragons, or World of Warcraft, say - where a Warlock is distinctly different from a Wizard or a Cleric, or other types. In such games or stories, the player (or reader) is told The Rules, because the scope, limitation and costs of magic are part of the game (or plot); and that is how we have fun in that particular make-believe world. The author Brandon Sanderson has a series of blogposts (starting here) about what he calls 'hard magic' (rule-based, explicit) and 'soft magic' (giving "the reader a sense of tension as they’re never certain what dangers—or wonders—the characters will encounter. Indeed, the characters themselves never truly know what can happen and what can’t"). I see that Tolkien is a 'softie' (if you like and want to use Sanderson's system). But as far as we can infer guidelines (like rules but all qualified with "except when...") I think you are right that:
- Some people can't do magic at all. Men for example...Oh except when Men can make magical swords; or. Or when Isildur curses the oathbreakers. Or possibly if our Witch King Tar-rarabumpsieay was a witch before he was a wraith. (No idea whether we can know about that last one, myself).
- If you are able to do magic, then often you should not -
- Motive is at the heart of things, as you rightly say, Felagund. Bad magic is "associated with 'machinery', in the sense of it being used to "bulldoze both people and things".
- And maybe you shouldn't mess with things that are beyond you (Gandalf criticises Saruman explicitly for keeping his palantir secret and using it; and it was a mistake for people to accept Sauron's Rings).
- Motive also matters should you happen upon a magical item (Gandalf is pleased that Frodo wants to take the Ring and guard it, and says that this will offer Frodo some protection). Sam gets a very big response from Galadriel's phial, andthat seems to be about motive (as in 'intention' or maybe faith).
It might be productive to think about how or whether the consequences of attempting magic interact with what is 'meant to happen' in Middle-earth. But I don't think I can propose any very concrete ideas right now.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 3, 12:49pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 3, 1:03pm
Post #177 of 203
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Now you have explained it, it all makes perfect sense
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The old riddle (to which "a rugby team" is the answer) goes:
What has thirty legs, two wings and one odd-shaped ball? Clearly the Black Captain is after Frodo because he is in possession of the One odd-shaped ball to rule them all, and therefore may be tackled. I now also understand that when Glorfindel shouts Noro lim, noro lim, Asfaloth! to his horse it should more correctly be translated as "knock on, knock on, Asfaloth!" Glorfindel is appealing for a penalty kick. This would presumably 'convert' Frodo between the rocks marking the pathway to the Ford (which stand in for the rugby posts here) over to safety on the other side of the river.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 3, 6:59pm
Post #178 of 203
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Anyone who reads HOME knows the LOTR on bookshelves is
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the de-rugbied version. Tolkien, every smart person knows, was really writing about rugby, but his Evil Publisher deemed the market for readers to be too small and thus invented a bunch of fantasy nonsense to broaden the mass market appeal. Recovered from the archives:
‘Don’t be a fool! What have you heard, and why did you listen?’ Gandalf’s eyes flashed and his brows stuck out like bristles. ... ‘Well, sir,’ said Sam dithering a little. ‘I heard a deal that I didn’t rightly understand, about ruck, goal, and tackle, and Mr. Bilbo, sir, and hookers, and a blood replacement, and – and All Blacks, sir. I listened because I couldn’t help myself, if you know what I mean. Lor bless me, sir, but I do love tales of that sort. And I believe them too, whatever Ted may say. All Blacks, sir! I would dearly love to see them. Couldn’t you take me to see All Blacks, sir, when you go?’ ...
‘The team of Sauron is ended!’ said Gandalf. ‘The Ring-bearer has scored his goal and won the Six Nations.’ And as the Captains gazed south to the Stadium of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky in the shape of an oval ball with flat ends, covered with sweat and mud and grime, the vomit of rugby. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening dropkick, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell as the final score was announced.
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Lissuin
Doriath

Mar 3, 9:19pm
Post #179 of 203
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I do hope Ataahua has been following this subthread. /
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator

Mar 5, 5:28am
Post #180 of 203
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What I haven't been able to find and am surprised not to have is Tolkien using the word 'warlock' to describe a magic-user who is in the 'evil camp'. Particularly given the Old English etymology: waerloga ('oath-breaker' or 'deceiver'). A warlock is sometimes described as a male witch and given that Tolkien put down his own 'purist' marker in regard of 'witch' being perfectly applicable to males and females, perhaps he saw no need to throw in warlocks as well. The word 'enchanter' doesn't appear either, as far as I can make out. Even though 'enchantment' does occur occasionally, for example in the arts exercised by Lúthien and Eöl. If someone turns up a mention to either word in the legendarium please post it! Not in the legendarium, but rather amusing (or at least intriguing) in the context of this discussion: of course we all know that JRRT worked on the OED. Specifically:
J. R. R. Tolkien (1892-1973) Member of Bradley’s editorial staff from 1919-1920, Tolkien’s contribution to the OED was in the range waggle-warlock. After his stint on the Dictionary, Tolkien went on to publish many works on Old and Middle English, later taking up professorships in Anglo-Saxon and English Language and Literature at Oxford. Tolkien is best known today for his fantasy fiction, most notably The Hobbit (1937) and the Lord of the Rings trilogy (1954-55). (Emphasis mine) (From https://www.oed.com/...-to-the-oed/?tl=true)
The Passing of Mistress Rose My historical novels Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there? - A Room With a View
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Mar 5, 11:22pm
Post #181 of 203
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pax Serendipita :)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Mar 6, 2:05pm
Post #182 of 203
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I'll make sure she (and others) does. //
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 6, 4:52pm
Post #183 of 203
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Wow, I had not realised the extent of this!
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Tolkien, every smart person knows, was really writing about rugby, but his Evil Publisher deemed the market for readers to be too small and thus invented a bunch of fantasy nonsense to broaden the mass market appeal. I suppose the reason it is not more widely known is that most of this material comes from papers that had been sold off to a secretive collector before Christopher Tolkien had a chance to study them. And so they couldn't receive the HoMe treatment until he could arrange to borrow them for a while. That's why the rugby stuff ends up in the seldom-read supplementary volumes, HoMe, A Loan, and HoMe, A Loan II. Among the things I liked are that bit about Tolkien's rugby captain making various noises, such as telephone sounds, to tell the team what he wanted, but without the opposition being able to understand. Hence "one ring to rolling maul", for example.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 6, 5:00pm)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 6, 5:58pm
Post #184 of 203
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AAAAAAaaaaaaaauuuuuugggghhhhhh!
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(Of course, you left out the part about two of the main characters' actual last name, Rugby, after trying and discarding Kirby, Derby, Weatherby, and Willoughby. Baggins was a compromise, since at least it kept the "B" and the "G" present in most of these.)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 6, 9:54pm
Post #185 of 203
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OMG. Serious this time: There is/was a rugby player named Yutaka Baggins Yazawa
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So life is imitating art/humor. Played for Tokyo Crusaders with bio here (scroll down to find or see below) that is mildly humorous:
Yutaka Baggins Yazawa – Prop/HookerYutaka started playing the game when he moved to the UK to study in the last decade of last century. Continued to play rugby mostly by way of penance for his debauched lifestyle in his 20’s. After 11 years in and about London, playing for various social sides, he went on to play in Hong Kong for 9 years at HKFC. His longevity as a player is only as remarkable as his consistent mediocrity as a player. Then again, one looks to an aging front-row player for reliability and immovability, rather than for a flash of genius and speed. That is his excuse. In any event. Yutaka feels honoured and privileged to be a part of the Cru family, and considers himself the luckiest man in the world, without having an incurable disease named after him. - Nationality: Japanese
- Occupation: Lawyer
- Age: Old Enough
- Height: Short Enough
- Weight: Heavy Enough
(found by google of "baggins rugby")
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 6, 10:50pm
Post #186 of 203
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revolving around Tolkien, looping back upon itself, tugged on relentlessly by the Baggins Constant.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 7, 5:52pm
Post #187 of 203
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To the tune of ..."Baggins' Groove"?
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To the tune of ..."Baggins' Groove"?
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 7, 6:47pm
Post #188 of 203
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I wonder what incident led to that nickname... :) //
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 7, 10:16pm
Post #190 of 203
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Oh, reality keeps intruding on my jokes: Tolkien's real-life rugby experience
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I know almost nothing about rugby and was just making stuff up after googling sites on rugby jargon, but here your photo of Tolkien in a school rugby team is fleshed out by his experience playing for them and writing about injuries, as well as his own little poem parody. Pretty interesting material to round out our one of our favorite authors who's almost always depicted as either a WWI soldier or an Oxford scholar but almost never as an athlete. From this link:
A genuine link to rugby in Tolkien's literary work is demonstrated through the publication of his first poem, The Battle of the Eastern Field, which was printed in the King Edward's School Chronicle in 1911. The poem describes a house rugby match in a parody of epic literature. It is a tongue-in-cheek account that is modelled on the then-renowned Lays of Ancient Rome by Lord Macaulay. Here, Tolkien's rival school houses are depicted as Roman clans dressed in red and green. Their 'battle' is described by Tolkien as follows: 'Now round in thickest throng there pressed These warriors red and green, And many a dashing charge was made, And many a brave deed seen. Full oft a speeding foeman Was hurtled to the ground, While forward and now backward, Did the ball of fortune bound: Till Sekhet marked the slaughter, And tossed his flaxen crest And towards the Green-clad Chieftain Through the carnage pressed; Who fiercely flung by Sekhet, Lay low upon the ground, Till a thick wall of liegemen Encompassed him around.' (Excerpt of poem reproduced with the kind permission of the King Edward's Foundation Archive.) Whilst we may not know the true extent of Tolkien's rugby prowess, it is clear that rugby played an important role in his formative years. The scars and memories lasted him a lifetime and have left us with a fantastic piece of poetry in The Battle of the Eastern Field. Injuries, captaincy, and sounds like a hobbit (compensating for small size with his ferocity):
In a letter to his son, Michael, in 1937, Tolkien recalled his early rugby playing days, stating that he was rejected at first due to his lighter frame, but that he 'decided to make up for (his) weight by (legitimate) ferocity.' Tolkien became house captain at the end of his first season and was soon thereafter awarded his colours. The scholar must have been a decent player, as later in life when meeting old classmates, he was surprised to learn that he was primarily remembered for his 'rugger-prowess' at school. Tolkien's rugby days were not without drama. In the same letter to his son he recalls how he 'got rather damaged - among things having (his) tongue nearly cut out.' Some attribute this accident to Tolkien's reputation later in life as an indistinct lecturer; however, others claim that he had always spoken in such a manner. Additional references to rugby from Tolkien speak of long-lasting injuries. In another letter to Michael in 1963 he states, 'I am getting nearly as unbendable as an Ent. My catarrh is always with me (and will be) - it goes back to a nose broken (and neglected) in schoolboy Rugby.'
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 7, 10:17pm
Post #191 of 203
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PS. Why did we discuss the Witch-king when there was all this rugby lore to examine? //
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 9, 10:52am
Post #192 of 203
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Pretty interesting material to round out our one of our favorite authors who's almost always depicted as either a WWI soldier or an Oxford scholar but almost never as an athlete.
Yes, I agree. I think it's good sometimes to get beyond the familiar images and recordings of Tolkien as a genial, pipe-puffing old Professor, or as a WWI veteran. Public schools* in Tolkien's time (and I think still today) could be absolutely fanatical about team sports, especially cricket and rugby. Rugby was thought to (and maybe does) promote toughness and competitiveness, as well as teamwork and a code of honour. (The sport's core principles are stated as Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline and Sportsmanship). In some public schools during that period (I don't know about Tolkien's), considerably more emphasis was placed of 'building character' than on academic achievement, and team sports were seen as a way of doing this. A comprehensive explanation would also include a lot about the English class system, but I think we can do without that right now. But there is something we should note. Young Tolkien, let's remember, was an outsider to English society in many ways: minority religion, foreign-sounding name, background in the struggling middle-class, orphan dependent upon the money of his guardian Fr Morgan. Geeky, morover. But given the status of team sports in the school system and among boys, I suspect that all those possible excuses for bullying or ostracism would be trumped by being a good rugby player, and you woudl be a figure of admiration, your eccentricities excused. Besides which, teammates tend to close ranks pretty quickly if someone from the outside is taking liberties. So I don't know - it would be a biographical research exercise I'm not going to undertake - but it's possible that we are looking at an enthusiastic athlete; or at someone who to begin with at least, was finding a way to survive and thrive in a society in which he could not automatically assume a place. ----- *Public school here being in the England-and-Wales sense - a fee-charging school that is "public" only from a historical schooling context in the sense of being open to pupils irrespective of locality, denomination or paternal trade or profession or family affiliation with governing or military service. In Tolkien's era students would typically 'board' - i.e. live at school. Confusingly perhaps, a school funded from taxation in England and Wales is a 'state school'.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 9, 5:05pm
Post #193 of 203
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I do wonder how much impact class had on education at the time
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As a repeat watcher of Downton Abbey, which naturally makes me an expert on everything, I am repeatedly struck by all the limitations the aristocracy put on themselves, opportunities for "success" that minorities clamor for now, which is quite a reversal. For example, women are supposed to "Build character" by learning polite manners and conversation, dancing, hosting, obeying men, dressing well, etc, but academic achievement??? No. And while there were different expectations of men, they weren't supposed to become scientists, scholars, businessmen, or anything requiring academic rigor which all seemed tawdry and middle class, though apparently sports prowess was OK. So go to Eton and Oxford, yes, obviously, go there to check off the boxes and play sports and make social connections, but don't emulate Sir Isaac Newton or Lord Byron or Lord Dunsany. Instead marry well, be respectable, keep your affairs discreet, etc., but do not get a Nobel Prize or Fields Medal or anything else that an ambitious university student of today might aspire to and consider "success." And of course not every university student today does aspire to more than beer, parties, romance, more parties, etc, but I'd still wager there was a seismic shift from the scholastic world you describe 100 years ago and today.
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond

Mar 27, 8:43pm
Post #194 of 203
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meddling in the affairs of wizards, necromancers, sorcerers, prestidigitators
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This is a really remarkable thread and takes a bit of reading to get caught up on. I realize I’m arriving late, but a thought or two. Firstly: do we have a hard date on the founding of Angmar? I can think of references here and there to Angmar being traveled to, engaged or activated, but I never did note any point in the timeline before which there definitively was no such realm. Going from memory here though. From a young age I interpreted the phrase “Witch-King of Angmar long ago” as a description of who the boss Nazgûl was as a living man, *before* anybody gave him a magic ring, and while I am often wrong and have been forced to abandon beloved misreadings before, I would always be careful to maintain space for that possibility unless definitively shown that the author has foreclosed it. Secondly, but only secondly because my mind is like a Jack Russell that smells squirrel, I would add to Felagund’s roundup that the Mouth of Sauron is fleetingly described as a sorcerer, which has always been one of those tantalizingly scanty indications of magic practiced by anyone other than Istari. Thirdly*, I was fascinated by the passage about the Witch-King’s state of mind after Weathertop. I had never seen this and I love it and take it right to heart. I would have said, we were told Gandalf’s (or Aragorn’s?) speculation that the Nazgûl withdrew for a time because they expected Frodo to succumb to the morgul-knife in short order, which is a fair guess (though seemingly off base), but we should also remember the very real (in-story) potency of kingly blood and its martial mettle, and the Numenorean track record of defeating the forces of Mordor, when considering what Aragorn was able to do below Weathertop. A flaming stick, after all, was good enough for Thorin to give as good as he got to three whole trolls, for a moment or two at least, and that’s because unlike all his retinue, he’s da king. But maybe that also is apart from the point. Maybe it mattered more that the defenseless pygmy bumpkin the Nazgûl were briefed on turned out to be a well-connected scrapper with a command of the language of the Noldor and a custom-made anti-witch-king weapon inexplicably in his hand. That’s a point to think about. What else? Maybe I forget. Long thread. Oh, well I was going to say, “great Numenorean lords” could be taken as great from Sauron’s perspective; that is, great on the scale of Numenorean lords you see around this continent. I do agree that the creation of Nazgûl was more a perquisite of Ring creation, not the central point; beheading the opposing nations by enslaving their leadership and possibly mind-controlling them into perverting the entire government seems more the play. *see above.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Mar 27, 10:00pm
Post #195 of 203
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the Witch-realm of Angmar - foundation
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Good to see you uncle Iorlas! And I agree, this is a really remarkable thread! Your question about the foundation of Angmar - spookily this came up on Tuesday in the noWiz's 'Last Alliance' thread. In my 'more Ringwraith musings' post there, I referred to the source material for the beginning of the Witch-realm of Angmar ('Appendix B', LotR):
[entry for c. 1300] The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. By this point even the youngest of the humans who became a Nazgûl would have been over 2,000 years old, and therefore the Witch-king of Angmar couldn't have been a 'pre-Ring of Power' living man, I reckon. He's also described specifically as one of the Nazgûl, a 'ringwraith' by definition in the Black Speech. 'Appendix A' further fixes the foundation timeline:
It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at this time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. The timeline for King Malvegil's reign is III.1272-1349, ie. within the c. III.1300 range stated in 'The Tale of Years' ('Appendix B'). My reading is that it isn't so much that Tolkien foreclosed the possibility you flag but rather that he doesn't appear to have opened it in the first place. All of that said, as someone who has beloved misreadings of their own, I urge you keep cherishing yours, as I do mine! And I agree, the various insights into the Witch-king's thinking, his dismay, uncertainty and so on are just priceless.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 27, 11:44pm
Post #196 of 203
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the only realm that Team Sauron created from scratch to oppose Arnor and Gondor, at least as far as we know. I was thinking that Gondor's problems came from known, existing realms in Harad and Rhun, but Arnor was polished off by this bunch of imported Bad Guys, who then disappeared soon after Arnor was destroyed. It's one of those things about Sauron's power that seems disturbing in an existential way: he can summon the resources and men to populate Angmar in sufficient numbers to challenge the often combined forces of Elves and Men in Eriador. It's something Sauron could do that the Good Guys could not. *Just a pondering point.*
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond

Mar 28, 2:34am
Post #197 of 203
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“comes north to Angmar” wasn’t a construction that proves there was no preexisting Angmar to arrive in, but to say that Angmar “arose” during a specific reign is depressingly definitive. I do so like it when you can leave room for sorcerous doings other than the central plot-moving ones like Rings and Istari. Thank you for the clarity, all the same! And for all your delightful activity. Always a good sign for any thread.
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond

Mar 28, 9:48pm
Post #198 of 203
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It's one of those things about Sauron's power that seems disturbing in an existential way: he can summon the resources and men to populate Angmar in sufficient numbers to challenge the often combined forces of Elves and Men in Eriador. It's something Sauron could do that the Good Guys could not. I have often noticed in fact that the Numenorean kingdoms seem to be treated by the author as inexplicably emptying of people and blowing away entirely when the kingship fails—and puffing up with human population again just as the king is reinstalled correctly. This is narrated or at least promised with respect to both southern and northern kingdoms, as a certain consequence of Elessar’s ascendancy; that people would arrive. The empty houses of Minas Tirith will gentrify. The deserted leagues of wold and wood between the Shire and Rivendell will be farmed by an influx of decent folk who have been waiting… in what wings? What was it Squire said? I don’t remember if it was this thread or the Last Alliance one. About Tolkien respecting realism and practical chains of consequence until the story needed him to ignore all that.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator

Mar 29, 12:55am
Post #199 of 203
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I regret that I didn't spot it sooner! :D /
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..." Dwarves: "Pretty rings..." Men: "Pretty rings..." Sauron: "Mine's better." "Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak. Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo My LOTR fan-fiction
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Lissuin
Doriath

Mar 29, 11:57pm
Post #200 of 203
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the RR has seemed to be very busy of late. In addition to the always erudite and thought-provoking book-related offerings one expects, delightful tangents abound...as one would expect from the usual list of instigators. Do try to keep up, woman!
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Apr 13, 7:38pm
Post #201 of 203
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a postscript on the Ringwraiths (origins and the 'masterless years')
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I was recently reading the follow-up to the Númenor & Gondor 'lore-dump' / lecture that we get from Faramir when he has Frodo and Sam in his custody at Henneth Annûn, and was struck by a passage concerning the Nazgûl. 'The Window on the West' is where I usually focus but in the following chapter, 'The Forbidden Pool', there's a gripping reference to the Nazgûl from Faramir, in the context of their capture of Minas Ithil:
'As you know, that city was once a strong place, proud and fair, Minas Ithil, the twin sister of our own city. But if was taken by fell men whom the Enemy in his first strength had dominated, and who wandered homeless and masterless after his fall. It is said that their lords were of Númenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the Enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them: living ghosts they were become, terrible and evil. After his going, they took Minas Ithil and dwelt there, and they filled it, and all the valley about, with decay: it seemed empty and was not so, for a shapeless fear lived within the ruined walls. Nine Lords there were, and after the return of their Master, which they aided and prepared in secret, they grew strong again. I don't reckon this adds anything fundamentally new to what the scholarship in this excellent thread has already brought to bear. There's further confirmation of the presence of Númenóreans in the ranks of the Ringwraiths, although nothing specific about the Witch-king. There's also more going with the grain material on the relative aimlessness of the Ringwraiths after the War of the (Last) Alliance, and their resurgence once their Master returns to direct their wills. I thought I'd add it to the collection though, not least as it's a passage that I'd forgotten existed! And it's figurative language is so powerful, with regard to the downfall of these Nine Lords: "and he devoured them..". Chilling!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Apr 13, 8:42pm
Post #202 of 203
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Being "devoured" is not on my personal bingo card
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which is explains why I don't serve Dark Lords: not morality, but enlightened cowardice! Thanks for adding this to the discussion, Felagund. I did indeed feel vaguely queasy when I read the passage you cited and got to "devoured," which is more concise and blunt than anything Gildor or Gandalf or Elrond says to Frodo. Sort of another signal in the book that we're now in The Danger Zone (without Tom Cruise), and nice language is no longer being bandied about a living room or cozy pub. And more emphasis that serving Sauron means losing your soul and identity, no matter how much power he gives you. While the Nazgul seem to have agency in conquering Minas Ithil (after a 2-year siege, I believe), and whatever they did in Dol Guldur, they do seem mostly bereft of agency most of the time, hence Faramir calling them "masterless." They're like the remoras that attach to a shark.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Apr 18, 4:18pm
Post #203 of 203
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Yes, it's hard-hitting language and bordering on horror genre in its framing, I reckon! What I'm also struck by here is that Faramir, in serving as Tolkien's lore download instrument here, demonstrates that some Gondorians at least were aware of the origins of some of the Nazgûl. By extension, these particular Nazgûl are an unliving reminder to the Gondorians of how far their distant kin had fallen, ere the Akallabêth.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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