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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Is the Single Movie Hobbit a contractual obligation?
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May 27 2008, 11:20am

Post #26 of 37 (3961 views)
17 years [In reply to] Can't Post

seems like a lot of time for Merry and Pippin to keep up their adolescent lifestyles! And for Sam to nurse his feelings for Rosie.

In Reply To
The film managed to elide the time after Bilbo's departure to Gandalf's return in such a way that we do not perceive elapsed time, whether 17 years or a few months.

In the book, Sam, Merry and Pippin are much younger than Frodo, and we only really get to know them 17 years later, when they're young adults (although we do meet the young Merry after the party).

Frodo, as we know, still looks like a young adult 17 years after the Party, because his appearance has been affected by the Ring, so the passage of 17 years in the film could be explained away for him. But it's much harder to explain those years away for the other hobbits.

(On the other hand, it wouldn't be hard to imagine a gap of a year or two - that's certainly within the bounds of credibility. And that might allow time to tell the story of what Gandalf and Aragorn were up to between the Party and the Gandalf's return.)

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.

(This post was edited by FarFromHome on May 27 2008, 11:26am)


May 27 2008, 1:08pm

Post #27 of 37 (4036 views)
I'm hoping for new storylines in Film2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Those events are all exciting scenes that fans of the LotR films would like to see, but they donít really stand on their own as an independent story. Do you think any of the storylines come to a resolution within Film2? Storylines like Gandalf riding out from the Shire to find out about the Ring and Boromir travelling to Rivendell feel to me like introductions and backstory to Fellowship of the Ring- the resolution is that Bilboís ring is the One Ring and that Frodo must leave the Shire. We donít want to repeat that story in Film2.

Iím hoping that in Film2 weíll follow the main character(s) on an engaging emotional journey with a conclusion of sorts. Iím also hoping to see something new in Film2. Ideally weíll have new characters or substantially new aspects on familiar characters; even new themes and perspectives on Tolkienís mythology that werenít covered in the previous films. If Film2 ends up looking like a super-extended edition of LotR then Iíll be disappointed.

     View my Hobbit Film Adaptation Discussion

Forum Admin / Moderator

May 27 2008, 1:51pm

Post #28 of 37 (3925 views)
Hmm... you have a point [In reply to] Can't Post

That is in fact a resolution of events in FOTR, so to speak. However, I think that cleverly crafted, the "main character(s) on an engaging emotional journey with a conclusion of sorts" could be a Gandalf's vigilance finally paying off. He was the one who was ever on the alert and really set things into motion, whether it was Frodo setting out of the Shire, engaging Aragorn to track Gollum and getting the Rangers to watch the Shire, moving the Council to strike Dol Guldur, and well, finding out Bilbo's ring was the One.

Oh well, let's see what they come up with. Yet no matter what they do, I'm harbouring a secret desire to see the Gollum and Shelob scene that GDT mentioned in passing. It'll almost entirely have to be concocted on the part of the filmmakers, but, I mean, how creepy would that scene be? If GDT likes the Riddle scene and the Mirkwood spiders, how much fun would he have with Gollum and Shelob together??? Mad

Crows and Gibbets! What is The House Of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater Sires.


May 27 2008, 2:22pm

Post #29 of 37 (3947 views)
Gandalf's vigilance good theme [In reply to] Can't Post

'Gandalf's vigilance' is a good theme to bring those storylines together. Adding a bit of Saruman rivalry would also spice things up a bit. I reckon Saruman is a good candidate for a character that's very different in Film2- he has to be a wise silver-tongued politician to mislead the White Council, with his treachery hidden to them.

I'm not so keen on Gandalf as a protagonist (there was a good discussion on this in an earlier thread) but he would be the likely choice for a 'strategic, prepare for the coming war' type Film2.

As for GDT loving the Mirkwood spiders- I'm sure that's exactly why he'd like to do a Shelob scene! Wink

     View my Hobbit Film Adaptation Discussion


May 27 2008, 2:35pm

Post #30 of 37 (3952 views)
The question is... [In reply to] Can't Post

Where do we get a climax for Film 2? If it's not the attack on Dol Guldor, its pretty hard to manufacture another major climax. I'm sure PJ and GDT could craft a beautiful character driven piece, but Warner et al are gonna want their Epic Movie with Big Battles (TM). Personally I've always favoured padding out the Hobbit into 2 movies with White Council material, which allows us to finish Film One with the attack on Dol Guldor and Film Two with the Battle of Five Armies.

The problem with moving to the 60 year gap is that although there's plenty of character development material, there's not much in the way of a plot, and nothing in the way of a climax. That, to me, is the real problem.


May 27 2008, 3:14pm

Post #31 of 37 (3930 views)
Agree- Dol Guldur would work as a climax [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that an epic climax would help the Film2 story. My solution is to push the timeline forward so that the attack on Dol Guldur occurs after The Hobbit and Battle of the Five Armies. In this way the Dol Guldur attack would be the climax of Film2, with the mood of a hollow victory as Sauron escapes only to redouble his strength in Mordor.

I know this idea breaks Tolkien's timeline, but I'm not convinced it's necessary that the two battles happen simultaneously. It could be that after the dragon is slain and the orcs defeated that Gandalf's case at the White Council for attacking the Necromancer becomes stronger and leads to the attack. I think having some time between The Hobbit and Film2 would be helpful to smooth over the differences in tone between the stories and avoid needing lots of complicated flashbacks.

     View my Hobbit Film Adaptation Discussion

(This post was edited by burrahobbit on May 27 2008, 3:14pm)


May 27 2008, 3:14pm

Post #32 of 37 (3879 views)
I love the Gandalf Vigilante idea [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a really smart way to join everything together. My wish is that the second movie will be based on Gandalf, Aragorn and Gollum as central characters. If I had to choose an ending, I'll go with the attack of the orcs on Mirkwood to capture Gollum and cut to Aragorn fighting the corsairs in the south, although I know that the timeline is all wrong.

Please, give us back Glorfindel!!!


May 27 2008, 8:40pm

Post #33 of 37 (3849 views)
Thank you Guillermo [In reply to] Can't Post

It amazes me that you are able to spend time paying interest to what we are thinking with what your schedule must look like. It is much appreciated.

(This post was edited by fingolfin_nc on May 27 2008, 8:41pm)


May 27 2008, 8:58pm

Post #34 of 37 (3869 views)
Well [In reply to] Can't Post

As I understand it, Saul Zaentz granted Harvey Weinstein the film rights to The Hobbit and LOTR. He also granted the rights to make an original "prequel" film using characters, places, and events out of the two books.

So whether The Hobbit is made into one, two, or even more films, the rights to make an original "prequel" would still be available.

The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.Ē

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May 28 2008, 12:11am

Post #35 of 37 (3888 views)
And in the end... [In reply to] Can't Post

...what you will have accomplished, will be what was meant to be. Like Tolkien writing these books: he had ideas in mind, but at times what came out on the paper was not what he originally envisioned! Yet it all worked out quite well. Smile

But that's all part of the creative process, of the discovery, of letting the material take you where it wants to go. May you have a most enjoyable journey with it!

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


May 28 2008, 1:18am

Post #36 of 37 (3856 views)
*broad smile* You can't ask better than that! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you're right about being in that very special place of the world. Everything seems to have an organic progression where everything falls into place.

It's going to be AWESOME!

sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

TORn's Observations Lists

The Shire

Jun 2 2008, 8:18pm

Post #37 of 37 (3833 views)
For Guillermo & Co: A Holm-Related HOBBIT Idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly, I was VERY impressed with Del Toro's answers and am convinced that he'll do an even better job than Jackson did (if truly given the kind of power that Jackson indicated he'll get).

For a long time I've been struggling with the reality that Ian Holm might not be capable at his age to handle such a physically strenuous role (though I have no doubt they could appropriately de-age him by ten years to make him appear as he did in the flashback in FOTR). He is, however, the perfect Bilbo and deserves to be prominently involved in the films. Here are my thoughts:

So how could they use Holm without him actually being cast throughout the film? Simple. Holm-Bilbo is writing the first part of the Red Book of Westmarch in Rivendell as the events of LOTR are unfolding (which would be accurate according to Tolkien). After all, Bilbo WAS the ostensible author of at least part of that (fictional) manuscript. Holm's involvement could be sprinkled throughout the first movie and he might be used minimally (if at all) in the second movie. This actually would work as the older Bilbo (by Holm) could describe Bilbo in any way--close but not necessarily exactly like a younger Holm''s Bilbo would look. This would solve the "frail, increasingly ancient Holm" problem, as Holm's Bilbo without the Ring is aging rapidly in Rivendell as he writes. I think this cinematic device (The Hobbit as flashback as Bilbo writes it) would be a stunning, poignant cinematic conceit if filmed sparingly and wisely. It could all take place, in fact, between the Long Expected Party and Frodo & Co.'s Flight to the Ford.

This seems like an elegant compromise to the Holm dilemma. I can even envision a humorous bit near the beginning where Holm's Bilbo imagines himself in a wig (as in the FOTR flashback under the Misty Mountains) and scraps that image, opting for a slightly different, younger (and perhaps a bit trimmer) version of himself (conveniently played by a younger actor that somewhat resembles Holm but who doesn't need to be a dead ringer).

At any rate, the whole literary conceit (which JRRT himself used) fits in nicely with the idea of all five films coming from Bilbo's original manuscript. I love metafiction, and this narrative device would certainly be in the spirit of the professor's own creation. It's a nice tip of the hat to both Holm's brilliant performance and JRRT's brilliant "translation" of the Bilbo's/Frodo's/Sam's first hand report of the events surrounding Sauron's rise to power and the hobbits' sudden relevance late in the 3rd Age, and--of course--the War of the Ring. And there are fine opportunities to jump from past events (from and after The Hobbit) to "present" interruptions and even poignant scenes between Bilbo and old friends in Rivendell. This would have to be handled carefully, of course, but I think it could potentially be beautifully filmed by the likes of GDT, who is such a master of pacing and character interaction in his past movies.

There also would be a perfect opportunity to bookend the "you haven't aged a day" comment at the beginning of the second film: Balin comes (with Gandalf) to visit Bilbo a good many years after the events in The Hobbit. It was "long ago" when remembered by Frodo in "The Council of Elrond" in FOTR, but it would've fit nicely into the events of the coming second film and would be a good opportunity for Gandalf to note Bilbo's appearance (and for it later to make sense when Gandalf observes that Bilbo hasn't "aged a day"). This might also work nicely if after the first film the filmmakers have dispensed with Holm-Bilbo's literary conceit--what we have in that case is the "real" Bilbo unaltered or adapted by the "author" (i.e., Bilbo himself). Does that make sense?

Also, it would be a great opportunity to deal with Balin's decision to repopulate Moria, Gandalf's strong disapproval of the idea, and the awakening of the Balrog. Yeah, and you know that there is plenty of great material to flesh out that JRRT himself wrote at least in outline and usually in a good bit of detail (sometimes with dialogue) that would easily fill up film 2!

What do you think?


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