I believe that very few people knowledgeable about drama would agree with such an opinion. Arguing that any writer of an adaptation is inferior to Tolkien and hence that any change or addition whatsoever is automatically "negative" elevates the author to a godlike status, and the creators of an an adaptation thus commit the crime of Lèse-majesté. This logic implies that there is no real need for a screenwriter, and certainly no need for creativity: all that a writer of an adaptation need do is copy passages from a book, making sure that the adaptation follows the book word for word.


There was a discussion about this back in the day concerning The Hobbit movies. Someone asked whether it would be better to film the book completely as written, page by page, with no additions or changes. My opinion was no: what would be the point of watching the resulting movie? You would know everything about the movie in advance, with no chance for surprises or appreciation of creative thought.


In the case of The Rings of Power, as many have pointed out, there is no "story" to follow, in that the source material comprises a few short paragraphs and a timeline of major events: no plots, no drama, and no dialog. Therefore, the worth of the adaptation lies in whether the writers can "breathe life" into this outline in a way that is both creative and that follows the themes and major events of the original material. The additions should add something that enhances the story. In ROP, an example would be Galadriel's reaction to her beloved brother being killed "in a dark place by agents of Sauron". The source material has nothing whatsoever to say about this; the showrunners used this gap as a foundation for her character arc, where her brother's death led to an obsession with finding Sauron.


The additions to the story should also show some literary sophistication, not simply use the common cliches that often dominate television screenwriting. For the Sauron story, for example, the writers have drawn on themes from Milton's Paradise Lost and Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Some may again interpret this as Lèse-majesté, but the story that they presented is an interesting take on the character and his history. Is this "fanfic"? Yes, in the sense that Paradise Lost is, as someone recently pointed out, fanfic based on the Bible.

In Reply To

That’s true of most things, including PJ’s LotR.

A lot of the dislike of RoP on this site and elsewhere involves lack of fidelity to the original text. That’s fair enough: we all have different tolerances of such changes. No one’s feelings are wrong – it’s a matter of personal preference. But, I could ask - what text? – because the Second Age material to which Amazon has the rights is pretty scant. I could ask – which text? – because Tolkien wrote a lot of stuff in his later years that contradicts published material, for instance, warrior Galadriel. Are Tolkien’s writings only canon if he or his son managed to get them published? Regardless, McKay and Payne seem to be drawing some inspiration from that material.

Further, it isn’t enough to say that something wasn’t that way in the book and therefore it’s bad. It might be awful but not just because it’s changed. An adaptation is a story being told in a different medium, for a different audience. The adapters may feel that changes have to be made to elements of the story to make it work in its new environment. Here, Tolkien’s world, its peoples and events are going to be slightly to very much altered after passing through the minds of the many other artists involved in the production.

Michelle, you and I often seem to see things about RoP in a similar way. It’s interesting to me to look at your list of deficiencies and see where I’m of the same mind.

Sauron’s disintegration into evil black goo and restoration into something that looks like a man was a bit silly but worked for me, making it very clear that Sauron is, in fact, not a man of any sort but a supernatural entity and very hard to destroy. But where was that boat going?

I think that the necessary groundwork has been laid for the Numenor story, and now that the weighty Annatar-Celebrimbor and the forging of the Rings chapter is finished, Numenor can come into its own over the next couple of seasons.

The creation of Mordor was unlikely, especially if the volcano has to then continuously spew sun-obscuring vapours for millennia to come.

Don’t get the smallness of the Southlands.

I’ve enjoyed pretty much all of the Stranger and Harfoots’ arc. I wish the Stranger wasn’t Gandalf but it doesn’t really change the story we’re seeing. Apparently, the writers were inspired by an undeveloped idea of Tolkien’s that Gandalf had visited M-e before the Third Age.

It seems to me that Poppy was originally intended to join the rest of the Harfoots in Season 2 obscurity, but minds were changed. The only way for her to join the quest was to follow Nori and the Stranger, however cutesy it turned out. I really like Poppy and the relationship between her and Nori, so I’m glad. I hope we meet the Fallohides next season. Maybe we’ll see all three groups settle down in the Shire. I know, timeline heresy!

I don’t disagree that Benjamin Walker had been rather wooden as Gil-galad but feel he’s better in Season 2. He also has a great, kingly screen presence and is pretty impressive wielding Aeglos. There was an interview on Rings and Realms with Walker in which he talks at length about Tolkien. He’s another who knows his stuff, thinks about it and apparently loves talking about it.

I do think that the Pelargir story has been dragged down by the abysmal acting and lack of screen presence of the actor playing Theo. Now that Bronwyn, Arondir and Isildur are gone, I couldn’t care less. Maybe the incredibly annoying Kemen and the Ents will liven things up. On that note, I think we’ve agreed before that both Kemen and Earien seemed pretty useless in Season 1 but now, as their characters actually have something significant to do, their acting has improved immensely.

Amazon should wrap everything up with next season...

It's time for Bezos to admit ROP hasn't been what he and the studio envision to become: A cultural phenomenon and supermassive success. So they should wrap everything up by next season with more than 8 episodes. 5 more episodes to cover the downfall of Numenor, the forging of the One and a shortened War of the Last Alliance that will only include the Battle of Dagorlad.

It's time for Bezos to admit ROP hasn't been what he and the studio envision to become: A cultural phenomena and super massive success. So they should just wrap everything up by next season with more than 8 episodes. 5 more episodes to cover the downfall of Numenor, forging of the One and a shortened War of the Last Alliance that will only include the Battle of Dagorlad.

Hi Noria,

I do not think you have contributed to the suggestions thread on upgrades. I suggested an ignore button.

This I think is a good place in the discussion to bring it up.

We have a handful of contributors who want the show stopped. Absolutely fine and no problem with them saying that. Clearly those people have made their mind up.

I really do think if people have a fundamental problem with the show and believe it has no redeeming qualities when set against its failings I personally see no point in engaging with them. What I am going to learn about their point of view in 2027 in 2030 and 2033 or when ever it is completed.

It makes not a scrap of difference to me if people feel that way but I do not wish to waste time on it. This is not a one off project it could go on for ten years and there is some very fascinating discourse going on which ironically makes me wish to return to the text.

I know we must play the subject and not the person but ironically I have seen the best criticism rather than sweeping generalisations from those who actually enjoy the show. We have learned something this season that at the root of a lot of the criticism is the DEI, Amazon, United States Fan Baiting, which again is of no interest to me nor I am aware of it.

This is why for me in a handful of cases an ignore button would be valuable as we make the journey.

Of course we can in a sense achieve this by simply ignoring people, a suggestion already made to me.

You and I Dormouse and I and Voronwe to name a few do not agree about everything that is entirely different to discussing with people their implacable distaste for the show.

on a more faithfully scripted series. I too kept hoping it would steer back to being on course but there was too much damage done to key characters and plot lines out of Showrunner and writer ego.

Beware the knitting club directorate that wants to censor because they cannot abide some opinions.

among most other plot devices deviated from the known 2nd age history for no other reason than ego They were not operating from a blank sheet. They had a well documented outline.

I think Bezos should start over from scratch and spend another billion dollars on a more faithfully scripted series.

Please explain how you know ego was the reason for [changing a story]

In Reply To

It's a valid counterpoint that maybe the writer is not in control of what they are being asked to write, so they could be excused from ego, but at either the writing level or somewhere up the decision chain, someone has decided on a "better" way to tell it. It's fair enough to assume that the creatives in power have egos, and use them, or they wouldn't be where they are. This can come off as knowing better than the author how to tell the author's story. Choose your word: arrogance, self-assured, hubris, ego - it's all quite common. And of course, as they would tell us, if you don't like this opinion, don't buy it.

Even though I'm certainly guilty of using both words as shorthand in debating with other posters, but those terms don't represent how I myself think about Tolkien.

How about legendarium? Didn't Tolkien come up with that? He's allowed.

Cannon is a great one, but my favourite (not relevant to this site) is marshall law.

It would be interesting to hear your actual analysis of why the showrunners decided to have the three made first instead of last. I've always thought that the reasons were fairly obvious. First, Season 1 needed a strong, climactic finale (as an aside, look at what happened with Season 2 of House of the Dragon, a series that shot itself in the foot by having a season finale where nothing much happened). This meant that we had to have some rings forged. But how to do this in the time available? If the seven or the nine were forged in Season 1, then we would have needed to introduce Dwarf Lords or Kings of Men, and we would have needed Sauron to be in the open, influencing Celebrimbor from the beginning. This would have not only negated the mystery surrounding Sauron but would also have shunted Galadriel and Elrond to the side- our main characters. Add to this, probably the vast majority of the viewers had not read the books in such depth; the three being made last is only mentioned in passing in several places if I remember correctly. However, most viewers will recall the verse, "Three rings for the Elven Kings...", and they may remember the prologue to Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring, where Galadriel says "Three were given to the Elves...". So the solution was to have the three made without Sauron's direct involvement by having Galadriel out him as Halbrand before they could be forged, and to have Sauron return later and reveal himself to Celebrimbor in Season 2 as "Annatar", a bringer of gifts. We can still have Celebrimbor consider the three to be his greatest works- he may be somewhat frustrated at the beginning of Season 2 by not quite being able to match his accomplishment and thus needing some help...leaving him susceptible to Sauron's ultimate deception.


Note that this is my own analysis of why they decided to have the Three forged first-- not saying that this was "right" or "wrong". But certainly this was not done because "the showrunners have no respect for Tolkien" or any such silly reasoning.

I'm still really struck - even after ALL THIS TIME - to see how dismissive some of us are about any changes or deviations from Tolkien's text.