We know Amazon just replaced all the writers of S2 with new ones.

With luck the show will be cancelled as it’s a horrible mess with no coherence or observation to the lore.

Changing the writers will make no difference if the show continues.

I hope the actors get to do other work rather have to carry on with this thing. They are doing their best with what they’ve been given.

But is it doing that badly? Are enough people watching it or am I hoping against that not enough people are?

I don’t know anyone that is watching it and then wanting to talk about it. So I don’t believe it’s a huge success.

I don’t mean to upset fans of the show, but it’s so far from anything JRRT set out, let alone wrote, that it deserves to end early.

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If you don't like it, don't watch, and leave it for those of us who do. I remember this same kind of post twenty-some years ago about Jackson's movies. Those had some serious flaws, but were stil enjoyable.

But is it doing that badly? Are enough people watching it or am I hoping against that not enough people are?

If you don't like it, don't watch, and leave it for those of us who do. I remember this same kind of post twenty-some years ago about Jackson's movies. Those had some serious flaws, but were stil enjoyable.

I think we all agree with you DGH. What some of us have an issue with is the "I hope it gets cancelled" crowd.

I don’t mean to upset fans of the show, but it’s so far from anything JRRT set out, let alone wrote, that it deserves to end early.

Then he turns into a pile black gloop and gets run over by a horse and cart and gets stuck to a wheel!!!

As for Mr Jackson, I didn’t like Hobbit movies either, and this proves that when these people have a lot of material to work with, as in LOTR movies, they do a good job. But when they don’t have much to work with, you get Rings of Power. But Jackson would still have done RoP better than these people.

Enjoy it if you must - I’m just a negative opinion - but we all know it’s a bad job and could have been much better.

None of this is surprising. Tolkien's writings are as good as they are because they weren't influenced by "corporate think". I love Jackson's movies and Rings of Power, but bean counters are gonna bean count. And most bean counters don't really understand great art. Especially those high up in corporations. I never understood why they had multiple writers in the first place. It's a recipe for lack of continuity.

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Tolkien at times wrote in terribly vague and abstract terms. It is difficult to represent the ethereal or spiritual in a visual medium without looking silly; your complaint. I think Tolkien writes specifically about shadows and something vague in the wind. And that's all you get to work with. What do you do - literally play Dust in the Wind by Kansas over a scene with a dust devil? There is simply nothing grounded, nothing concrete for a screenplay writer to grab onto. Nothing will satisfy and it will usually look unimaginatively literal. Writers of original material for this kind of thing really could do better. They might say "I wanted to leave it open to the reader's [or viewer's] own interpretation." When I hear that, I hear cop-out.

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This might not be a very good example as it is not based in anything that Tolkien wrote. Sauron was never assassinated by an underling, much less by one using the crown of Morgoth. He never resurrected his physical form by absorbing the mass and life-force of other creatures. This is entirely made up for the show with no basis on the legendarium. It is pure fanfic. Unfortunately, the same can be said for much of Rings of Power. However, I could say much the same thing for the much of the material added to Peter Jackson's Hobbit trilogy, particularly the Legolas/Tauriel/Kili triangle, and the tombs in the High Fells (an alteration that plays havoc with the history of Gondor and the end of its line of Kings).

Sauron appears in the form of a werewolf, is defeated by a lesser spirit and flees as a bat.

I wonder O-S how many people would say that is nothing like the death and rebirth of Sauron in S2.

He passes back to Mordor on the wind after the fall of Numenor and reassembles as what? I agree with Carpenter on this.

Sometimes fans, and i know you do not do this, use their encyclopaedic knowledge to whip Sir Peter and the showrunners of ROP to show how little the latter really know about Tolkien.

I am of the opinion, based on listening to them, the ROP showrunners know the text well and if they choose to ignore it, then it is deliberate, good bad or indifferent. Their presentation on the forging of the rings works better than the appendices which lacks the intensity of scrutiny of full blown storytelling.

On the question of Sauron's beginnings being Fanfic I would say two things :-

1) Simon the professors grandson did not give permission to use the source. Carpenters point often made.

2) As a consequence a writer needs to find a solution. Is it fanfic if it is bad, or simply because it is different.

That I have been reading your posts for fifteen years is helpful I know your reservations about the Hobbit, mine are entirely different, but ironically I am probably much more negative on it than you are. On the basis of story telling, tone and action for actions sake, as well as the matters you mention.

I believe that very few people knowledgeable about drama would agree with such an opinion. Arguing that any writer of an adaptation is inferior to Tolkien and hence that any change or addition whatsoever is automatically "negative" elevates the author to a godlike status, and the creators of an an adaptation thus commit the crime of Lèse-majesté. This logic implies that there is no real need for a screenwriter, and certainly no need for creativity: all that a writer of an adaptation need do is copy passages from a book, making sure that the adaptation follows the book word for word.


There was a discussion about this back in the day concerning The Hobbit movies. Someone asked whether it would be better to film the book completely as written, page by page, with no additions or changes. My opinion was no: what would be the point of watching the resulting movie? You would know everything about the movie in advance, with no chance for surprises or appreciation of creative thought.


In the case of The Rings of Power, as many have pointed out, there is no "story" to follow, in that the source material comprises a few short paragraphs and a timeline of major events: no plots, no drama, and no dialog. Therefore, the worth of the adaptation lies in whether the writers can "breathe life" into this outline in a way that is both creative and that follows the themes and major events of the original material. The additions should add something that enhances the story. In ROP, an example would be Galadriel's reaction to her beloved brother being killed "in a dark place by agents of Sauron". The source material has nothing whatsoever to say about this; the showrunners used this gap as a foundation for her character arc, where her brother's death led to an obsession with finding Sauron.


The additions to the story should also show some literary sophistication, not simply use the common cliches that often dominate television screenwriting. For the Sauron story, for example, the writers have drawn on themes from Milton's Paradise Lost and Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Some may again interpret this as Lèse-majesté, but the story that they presented is an interesting take on the character and his history. Is this "fanfic"? Yes, in the sense that Paradise Lost is, as someone recently pointed out, fanfic based on the Bible.

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That’s true of most things, including PJ’s LotR.

A lot of the dislike of RoP on this site and elsewhere involves lack of fidelity to the original text. That’s fair enough: we all have different tolerances of such changes. No one’s feelings are wrong – it’s a matter of personal preference. But, I could ask - what text? – because the Second Age material to which Amazon has the rights is pretty scant. I could ask – which text? – because Tolkien wrote a lot of stuff in his later years that contradicts published material, for instance, warrior Galadriel. Are Tolkien’s writings only canon if he or his son managed to get them published? Regardless, McKay and Payne seem to be drawing some inspiration from that material.

Further, it isn’t enough to say that something wasn’t that way in the book and therefore it’s bad. It might be awful but not just because it’s changed. An adaptation is a story being told in a different medium, for a different audience. The adapters may feel that changes have to be made to elements of the story to make it work in its new environment. Here, Tolkien’s world, its peoples and events are going to be slightly to very much altered after passing through the minds of the many other artists involved in the production.

Michelle, you and I often seem to see things about RoP in a similar way. It’s interesting to me to look at your list of deficiencies and see where I’m of the same mind.

Sauron’s disintegration into evil black goo and restoration into something that looks like a man was a bit silly but worked for me, making it very clear that Sauron is, in fact, not a man of any sort but a supernatural entity and very hard to destroy. But where was that boat going?

I think that the necessary groundwork has been laid for the Numenor story, and now that the weighty Annatar-Celebrimbor and the forging of the Rings chapter is finished, Numenor can come into its own over the next couple of seasons.

The creation of Mordor was unlikely, especially if the volcano has to then continuously spew sun-obscuring vapours for millennia to come.

Don’t get the smallness of the Southlands.

I’ve enjoyed pretty much all of the Stranger and Harfoots’ arc. I wish the Stranger wasn’t Gandalf but it doesn’t really change the story we’re seeing. Apparently, the writers were inspired by an undeveloped idea of Tolkien’s that Gandalf had visited M-e before the Third Age.

It seems to me that Poppy was originally intended to join the rest of the Harfoots in Season 2 obscurity, but minds were changed. The only way for her to join the quest was to follow Nori and the Stranger, however cutesy it turned out. I really like Poppy and the relationship between her and Nori, so I’m glad. I hope we meet the Fallohides next season. Maybe we’ll see all three groups settle down in the Shire. I know, timeline heresy!

I don’t disagree that Benjamin Walker had been rather wooden as Gil-galad but feel he’s better in Season 2. He also has a great, kingly screen presence and is pretty impressive wielding Aeglos. There was an interview on Rings and Realms with Walker in which he talks at length about Tolkien. He’s another who knows his stuff, thinks about it and apparently loves talking about it.

I do think that the Pelargir story has been dragged down by the abysmal acting and lack of screen presence of the actor playing Theo. Now that Bronwyn, Arondir and Isildur are gone, I couldn’t care less. Maybe the incredibly annoying Kemen and the Ents will liven things up. On that note, I think we’ve agreed before that both Kemen and Earien seemed pretty useless in Season 1 but now, as their characters actually have something significant to do, their acting has improved immensely.

Amazon should wrap everything up with next season...

It's time for Bezos to admit ROP hasn't been what he and the studio envision to become: A cultural phenomenon and supermassive success. So they should wrap everything up by next season with more than 8 episodes. 5 more episodes to cover the downfall of Numenor, the forging of the One and a shortened War of the Last Alliance that will only include the Battle of Dagorlad.

It's time for Bezos to admit ROP hasn't been what he and the studio envision to become: A cultural phenomena and super massive success. So they should just wrap everything up by next season with more than 8 episodes. 5 more episodes to cover the downfall of Numenor, forging of the One and a shortened War of the Last Alliance that will only include the Battle of Dagorlad.

Hi Noria,

I do not think you have contributed to the suggestions thread on upgrades. I suggested an ignore button.

This I think is a good place in the discussion to bring it up.

We have a handful of contributors who want the show stopped. Absolutely fine and no problem with them saying that. Clearly those people have made their mind up.

I really do think if people have a fundamental problem with the show and believe it has no redeeming qualities when set against its failings I personally see no point in engaging with them. What I am going to learn about their point of view in 2027 in 2030 and 2033 or when ever it is completed.

It makes not a scrap of difference to me if people feel that way but I do not wish to waste time on it. This is not a one off project it could go on for ten years and there is some very fascinating discourse going on which ironically makes me wish to return to the text.

I know we must play the subject and not the person but ironically I have seen the best criticism rather than sweeping generalisations from those who actually enjoy the show. We have learned something this season that at the root of a lot of the criticism is the DEI, Amazon, United States Fan Baiting, which again is of no interest to me nor I am aware of it.

This is why for me in a handful of cases an ignore button would be valuable as we make the journey.

Of course we can in a sense achieve this by simply ignoring people, a suggestion already made to me.

You and I Dormouse and I and Voronwe to name a few do not agree about everything that is entirely different to discussing with people their implacable distaste for the show.

on a more faithfully scripted series. I too kept hoping it would steer back to being on course but there was too much damage done to key characters and plot lines out of Showrunner and writer ego.

Beware the knitting club directorate that wants to censor because they cannot abide some opinions.

among most other plot devices deviated from the known 2nd age history for no other reason than ego They were not operating from a blank sheet. They had a well documented outline.

I think Bezos should start over from scratch and spend another billion dollars on a more faithfully scripted series.

Please explain how you know ego was the reason for [changing a story]

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It's a valid counterpoint that maybe the writer is not in control of what they are being asked to write, so they could be excused from ego, but at either the writing level or somewhere up the decision chain, someone has decided on a "better" way to tell it. It's fair enough to assume that the creatives in power have egos, and use them, or they wouldn't be where they are. This can come off as knowing better than the author how to tell the author's story. Choose your word: arrogance, self-assured, hubris, ego - it's all quite common. And of course, as they would tell us, if you don't like this opinion, don't buy it.

Even though I'm certainly guilty of using both words as shorthand in debating with other posters, but those terms don't represent how I myself think about Tolkien.

How about legendarium? Didn't Tolkien come up with that? He's allowed.

Cannon is a great one, but my favourite (not relevant to this site) is marshall law.

It would be interesting to hear your actual analysis of why the showrunners decided to have the three made first instead of last. I've always thought that the reasons were fairly obvious. First, Season 1 needed a strong, climactic finale (as an aside, look at what happened with Season 2 of House of the Dragon, a series that shot itself in the foot by having a season finale where nothing much happened). This meant that we had to have some rings forged. But how to do this in the time available? If the seven or the nine were forged in Season 1, then we would have needed to introduce Dwarf Lords or Kings of Men, and we would have needed Sauron to be in the open, influencing Celebrimbor from the beginning. This would have not only negated the mystery surrounding Sauron but would also have shunted Galadriel and Elrond to the side- our main characters. Add to this, probably the vast majority of the viewers had not read the books in such depth; the three being made last is only mentioned in passing in several places if I remember correctly. However, most viewers will recall the verse, "Three rings for the Elven Kings...", and they may remember the prologue to Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring, where Galadriel says "Three were given to the Elves...". So the solution was to have the three made without Sauron's direct involvement by having Galadriel out him as Halbrand before they could be forged, and to have Sauron return later and reveal himself to Celebrimbor in Season 2 as "Annatar", a bringer of gifts. We can still have Celebrimbor consider the three to be his greatest works- he may be somewhat frustrated at the beginning of Season 2 by not quite being able to match his accomplishment and thus needing some help...leaving him susceptible to Sauron's ultimate deception.


Note that this is my own analysis of why they decided to have the Three forged first-- not saying that this was "right" or "wrong". But certainly this was not done because "the showrunners have no respect for Tolkien" or any such silly reasoning.

I'm still really struck - even after ALL THIS TIME - to see how dismissive some of us are about any changes or deviations from Tolkien's text.

No matter how many times we circle round and round this argument my position remains the same - the outrage and criticism of ROP is wildly disproportionate to the actual "lore" changes and story tweaks that we've seen. Jackson and Bakshi and even Rankin/Bass all seem to get a break that ROP doesn't get. THAT'S the centerpoint of my confusion.

Perhaps its not ego OR incompetence.

I think Tolkien's 2nd Age "lore" is incomplete (at least as a narrative) and overly realistic and complicated to make for an accessible mainstream television show. Even The Lord of the Rings required a heck of a lot of simplification to be consumable by "the masses"

We might not agree that Tolkien's works need to be flattened somewhat to succeed in a new medium like film or television - but we should at least be able to agree that Hollywood thinks so.

In that context, I think a lot of the changes make sense - even if they're not necessarily how I would have done things. SOMEthing had to be done.

No matter how many times we circle round and round this argument my position remains the same - the outrage and criticism of ROP is wildly disproportionate to the actual "lore" changes and story tweaks that we've seen. Jackson and Bakshi and even Rankin/Bass all seem to get a break that ROP doesn't get. THAT'S the centerpoint of my confusion.

In all Tolkien adaption you'll find unhappy fans, or fans complaining about lore and fidelity and all the rest of it.

But only with ROP do we have this seemingly iron clad certainty that the show is crap, everyone knows its crap, the intentions of the filmmakers are crap, the sociopolitical machinations of the studio are crap, and the treatment of the fans is crap, and on and on.

Do you not see how this changes gears somewhat from the usual fan reactions? Do you have an explanation for the wildly conspiratorial way the show is talked about? Or the way the REAL intents and hubris of the showrunners is seemingly self-apparent to a wide slice of the internet? A suspiciously similar slice to the other wide slice that seems to hate almost everything that comes out for the same few reasons?
Is it just me?

Could you tell me how casting people of colour affects the story of RoP? I'd really like to know because I hardly noticed the diversity and I'm sure I have my own biases. What specific story points are changed?

Also "Galadriel man-spreading": are you referring to that cover photo of a mail clad Galadriel sitting on a rock with her knees apart and her elbows on her thighs? Like an armoured warrior sitting comfortably? Honestly, I wouldn't expect anyone under 90 to be bothered by that.

I still don't understand why anyone cares what Amazon says.

The main criticism is the destruction of KNOWN characters and their personalities.......Galadriel is chief among them

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Eruonen discussed the quite strong component of a poor adaptation that somewhat mitigates my first thought to this question...

For those who don't like my repetition, ignore:

...but what came first out of the gate was DEI, fan-baiting/name-calling as a Marketing tactic, and Galadriel manspreading - nothing about story, story, story. Adaptation (story) had early spy leaks, but political agenda was the first in your face [ref: Superfans]. The agenda wagging the story. I'm not here to support, deny, or proselytize this thesis. Some folks don't like this pointed out, but It's simply what I observed and report. From there everything else has metaphorically rolled downhill. The reaction was started and will not stop. It ran straight into what "the world looks like today" - a massive divide between Left and Right and heavy resistance to "The Message." Hollywood still truly does not seem to understand what it is doing to itself. It (and Disney) actually appears to be tripling down on ideology in the face of failure, as if that is what will fix things, and is in the abyss of denial. It's insane. The recovery, if it's not already too late, is to lead with story, story, story and leave agenda far. far behind. Rings of Power is already a poisoned fruit. It will finish out its scheduled run, but will never be what Amazon dreamed of due to unforced these errors.

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You see this is what I find so interesting about your criticism. You base it on your view of the Lore, which is incomplete.

1) The only definitive Galadriel we meet of the professors is in the LOTR, which includes the appendices written statements of her rejecting/being suspicious of Annatar.

2) Every other element of Galadriel is speculation from the vast Silmarillion materials. Those materials, which cover her earlier life, posit her as a warrior fighting at the Kinslaying and rejecting Feanor and leaving for middle earth on her terms. It is entirely clear to me that the show runners, as well as basing her story on her words of rejection about Sauron, were inspired by these speculations of Tolkien.

What is ironic about all this hand ringing is when the professor wrote the Silmarillion and Akallabeth Galadriel did not exist he had to 'wait for it' write her back in afterwards.

The early warrior Galadriel also coincides with his knowledge of Haggard's Ayesha. In her early life she rode with her father's warriors and fought in her back story, much as Galadriel at the Kinslaying.

I am afraid I will not be able to join you in your play room today, I am out hiking and scuba diving. (Humour).

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This is a decent example of how Hollywood won't cure the disease (the cause) by arguing the symptoms (the effect). A Project Manager might loosely call this "bikeshedding," which isn't a great analogy but lends to help the understanding.

Is it just me?

"RoP has never been fairly evaluated on its merits, especially by those who couldn't see past the DEI policies. It is certainly a victim of the culture wars."

Sure it has been evaluated and found wanting.
DEI was the fault of ROP.
DEI is the least of the issues.

"RoP is also not the first project damaged or destroyed when the members of a toxic internet culture don't get what they want, don't like what they get or get their feelings hurt by big bad corporations."

No, the audience is the final arbiter.
It is not toxic culture it is Hollywood in general pushing such toxic garbage and it is rejected.......Marvel, Disney, Star Wars...garbage is garbage.

I have never been given one example within ROP of its short comings which relate to DEI by any of you.

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DEI (and ESG) is seen as anathema to merit and therefore quality that affects everything down the line, causing an avalanche of criticism about poor choices and writing that buries any production's chances for success. In this view, the disappointment and details you ask for exist not only in the result but also in the potential we'll never see when the agenda comes before the story or merit.

I'll once again clarify that I believe fractured franchise rights are a huge problem ahead even of all that.

Still waiting for examples pertaining to RoP, which after all is the raison d'être of this board. I’m not interested in generalities. What you’ve been talking about are nonspecific and uninformed perceptions about the possible consequences of DEI, not any actual consequences. It’s all theoretical and so doesn’t necessarily exist in the real world.

If RoP is not adversely affected by DEI, is anything else?

RoP has its self-inflicted problems but is not struggling because of DEI. That has caused no discernable harm to the story or the production. Rather, any issues around hiring policies are external, generated by people who, for their own reasons, some perhaps unconscious, object to or feel threatened by the inclusion of others in areas of society previously dominated by one segment of the population.

You can dress that up anyway you like as a matter of integrity, principle or free speech, but that’s what it is. Lipstick on a pig, etc. The ultimate objective of DEI is a level playing field and inclusion for all.

There is now a kind of hysteria surrounding RoP that has nothing to do with its quality or lack thereof. It is simply not that nearly that bad.

Caretaker has actually admitted he is calling out the quality on the basis of corporate policy affecting quality, as if he knows that DEI = poor quality writing. Not only is that utter nonsense, though I commend him for his honesty...

Some have been cut already from the discussion thread. Please discuss the topic, and not your perception of another board member's merits or character.

As a reminder, here's the rule from the Terms of Service:

3. Posts containing racial, ethnic, religious, political, sexual or other slurs, personal attacks (on a TORn user or other person) intentional attempts to drive posters away or make them feel unwelcome, or posts made with the purpose of criticizing or insulting another poster will be edited or removed. Continually antagonistic, negative non-discussion will be treated the same way.


Admins are keeping an eye on this discussion thread and we'll lock it to stop the personal attacks if necessary, but we'd prefer that people instead focus on the topic at hand. Ta.

These are all excerpts from Unfinished Tales

Historical and Cultural Context: The inclusion of DEI may also undermine the historical and cultural context that informed Tolkien’s work, which was heavily influenced by European mythology and folklore."

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As such, would not Rings of Power be forbidden to use this material?

In addition, in a passage that was sadly edited by Christopher Tolkien in the published Silmarillion, Galadriel was described in latest edit of the chapter in the Quenta Silmarillion "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie" as "the most valiant" of the house of Finwe, as well as the most beautiful.

A queen she [Galadriel] was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth.

This article is part of a directory: The Lord Of The Rings: Rings Of Power Season 3 - Will It Happen? Everything We Know

Your contributions are interesting and valuable. This too shall pass. Anyway, discussion of RoP will wane and drop off as the season finale recedes into the past, at least until there is news of a third season.

This is a great site, despite everything. Compared to YouTube for instance, TORN is an island of rationality and civility on the internet, thanks to the TOS and moderators as well as a generally better class of posters. What we just got admonished for is nothing compared to the vicious vitriol that is the norm elsewhere on the internet.

After Season 1 of RoP, a number of the show’s haters apparently left the discussion, as rational people would. In the years since, I started skipping over the contributions of certain other posters, essentially because I saw no value in them, for different reasons. I’ll return to that policy, my own personal Ignore feature. People can post whatever they want. We don’t have to read it.

As for the topic of this thread: no one knows why Amazon has not yet said anything about renewing RoP. All else is speculation.

Amazon’s betting that sports can more reliably draw audiences to the Prime Video service than new movies and shows, significantly boosting its ad revenue, according to multiple people familiar with its strategy.

...Doesn't necessarily mean ROP is doomed, but if the C-suite is getting cold feet that might account for the apparent delay in the green light for S3.

As a (possibly IQ-deficient) sports viewer...