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Junesong
Rohan
Oct 17 2024, 2:40pm
Post #26 of 79
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Not to get sidetracked - but this brings up one of my biggest pet peeves about the Jackson films. Celeborn was a huge charisma vacuum in those films.
With the exception of Legolas, I really hated how Jackson depicted Elves in his films. The slow motion, the low register for speaking, the weird ethereal luminescence - all of it were choices I disagree with. Probably the most glaring, head-scratching take of all is something Jackson says in the director's commentary:
As the fellowship is escaping Moria - during the "GIVE THEM A MOMENT FOR PITY'S SAKE!" scene, Jackson recalls giving Orlando Bloom this direction (paraphrased)
"You're an immortal elf who has lived for thousands of years and you are confused by death and by the grief of your companions as its something you're not used to..." or something to that effect.
I almost fell out of my chair at home listening to it.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Noria
Grey Havens
Oct 17 2024, 3:47pm
Post #27 of 79
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I was OK with the portrayal of the Elves in LotR but I hear you about the way they speak at times.
But I do agree about PJ’s direction to Bloom about death. Elves may be virtually immortal but they can still die in mishaps and in fighting. Surely over millennia Legolas had seen something of that and surely he was aware of the cycle of life and death amongst humans and the natural world, like the Woodlands.
In one of the DVD documentaries on The Hobbit movies, there is a bit showing some of the filming of the White Council scene. Cate Blanchett says something about Elves being like Vulcans and I remember thinking “No, they’re not!”. Presumably she had been given that direction.
Martin Csokas wasn’t great but he may be a decent actor who received bad direction. I didn't perceive any chemistry with Blanchett, however. I seem to remember something about scenes of his being cut from Towers, for time. Maybe he would have been less stilted like he was in his one-on-one scene with Aragorn in Fellowship.
IIRC, the Woodland Elves of The Hobbit are more natural and certainly RoP’s are.
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Archestratie
Rohan
Oct 17 2024, 4:42pm
Post #28 of 79
(1529 views)
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Not to get sidetracked - but this brings up one of my biggest pet peeves about the Jackson films. Celeborn was a huge charisma vacuum in those films.
With the exception of Legolas, I really hated how Jackson depicted Elves in his films. The slow motion, the low register for speaking, the weird ethereal luminescence - all of it were choices I disagree with. Probably the most glaring, head-scratching take of all is something Jackson says in the director's commentary:
As the fellowship is escaping Moria - during the "GIVE THEM A MOMENT FOR PITY'S SAKE!" scene, Jackson recalls giving Orlando Bloom this direction (paraphrased)
"You're an immortal elf who has lived for thousands of years and you are confused by death and by the grief of your companions as its something you're not used to..." or something to that effect.
I almost fell out of my chair at home listening to it.
I don't know about you, but I loved Lee Pace's performance as Thranduil in the Hobbit Movies. In fact, for me, that was the best part.
My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf
The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 17 2024, 7:01pm
Post #29 of 79
(1510 views)
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As the fellowship is escaping Moria - during the "GIVE THEM A MOMENT FOR PITY'S SAKE!" scene, Jackson recalls giving Orlando Bloom this direction (paraphrased)
"You're an immortal elf who has lived for thousands of years and you are confused by death and by the grief of your companions as its something you're not used to..." or something to that effect.
At Boromir's death, to the contrary of this direction, I thought Bloom gave Legolas a look of great sorrow and empathy - not confusion. It's a memorable moment, especially for being fairly new to the acting thing at the time.
I think ethereal for the elves is appropriate and something desperately lacking in Rings of Power. How else to achieve it on film?
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 17 2024, 7:13pm
Post #30 of 79
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It doesn’t really matter to me if it’s ratings or Jeff Bezos’ ego or both that keeps RoP coming as long as it keeps getting renewed.
I’ve seen speculation that Amazon could make an announcement at New York ComicCon, which starts today. I don’t know why that might be though.
Bezos as Celeborn would be funny, at least the reaction would be.
Whoever is cast as Celeborn needs to be attractive, charismatic and a good actor if he’s going to outclass or even match Halbrand. RoP's casting has been mostly excellent so it seems likely they'll find the right guy.
1. Renewal is a given. We all know that. I wouldn't spend time wondering and waiting for the event.
2. There is a recent ScreenRant article I haven't read, but saw the headline come through of "Rings Of Power Can't Go Another Season Without Explaining Where The Heck This Canon Character Is." I knew it meant Celeborn so I didn't bother following the link, but maybe others here might see something interesting in it (link below). For my part, it's just one of the poorer aspects of the adaptation where they removed Celeborn to unburden and excuse Galadrial from her mate. If this were a Friends episode, they'd be yelling "We were on a break!".
https://screenrant.com/rings-of-power-celeborn-must-return-season-3/
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Junesong
Rohan
Oct 17 2024, 7:16pm
Post #31 of 79
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I remember that look on Legolas's face - I thought that was spot on.
Regarding the ethereal elves - I totally agree that there's a tension in how to portray the majesty of elves. It's one of the best parts of Tolkien's prose, his ability to elevate places and characters in ways that makes them larger than life. It's one of his greatest strengths as an author. It's also really hard to translate visually.
I would love to have been in the writers room, participating in the lore debates and the brainstorming sessions. I just think the elves in Jackson's films came off as stiff and kind of hokey. The Hobbit improved on this a bit - but still sometimes felt over the top.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
Oct 17 2024, 8:10pm
Post #32 of 79
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He was told to act as if speaking in the Common Tongue was unusual for him
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Martin Csokas wasn’t great but he may be a decent actor who received bad direction.
...hence his slow speech, but it came across as flat and with zero personality. He certainly does better in the extended edition of FOTR with his chat with Aragorn.
I hadn't heard about him having scenes filmed for TTT. Do you remember any details about them?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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cats16
Half-elven
Oct 17 2024, 8:14pm
Post #33 of 79
(1476 views)
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...after all the years of discussion about his performance, it still to this day never bothers me. In part (I think) due to Cate Blanchett's performance, which - to me - Csokas seems to be in dialogue with as a performer.
But then again, I'm the very rare breed that prefers the theatrical cuts to the EEs as movies, so perhaps I just have some unique opinions on this stuff. 
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 17 2024, 9:02pm
Post #34 of 79
(1471 views)
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Martin Csokas wasn’t great but he may be a decent actor who received bad direction. ...hence his slow speech, but it came across as flat and with zero personality. He certainly does better in the extended edition of FOTR with his chat with Aragorn. I hadn't heard about him having scenes filmed for TTT. Do you remember any details about them?
My memory is vague on this, but I thought it was Csokas who was uninvited from the cast and cut due to an involvement in a political or union action.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Oct 18 2024, 12:25am
Post #35 of 79
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There is no accounting for taste
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“you can’t make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear”....it looks good, the designs are good, some of the acting is good, but the story is still terrible.
Season 2 was marginally better than season 1 but it is inherently flawed and always will be expensive fan fiction.
I watched it so my critical minutes count in the mix. I keep looking for something that will salvage this mess but it is thin gruel.
Galadriel's character has been obliterated. Well done Amazon.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 18 2024, 1:34am
Post #36 of 79
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I watched it so my critical minutes count in the mix.
How so - per episode viewer rating? E.g., 1 star out of 5? Is zero stars available? Do you think Amazon takes it into consideration? Is it mentioned anywhere that they really use these? Or is it displayed somewhere so viewers can compare themselves with other viewers, or simply used to order your own viewing preferences in the UI?
Galadriel's character has been obliterated. Well done Amazon.
In more ways than one:
1) The character Galadriel
2) Galadriel's character, qualities
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Oct 18 2024, 1:37am
Post #37 of 79
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No idea what Amazon does with any data...it is all secretive.
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sharku
Lorien
Oct 18 2024, 3:50am
Post #38 of 79
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Who knows how many people watched this or how much Amazon cares about how many or what people think of it.
Either way, roll on S3 and beyond.
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 18 2024, 5:26am
Post #39 of 79
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Thranduil, his wife, Celebrian and Celeborn
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On your point about Lee Pace rather like Gandalf's exploration of Dol Gulder, Beorn and Thrain's incarceration (in the original film screen play) his story had the potential to help 'adultise' the Hobbit movies, when I moved away from being disappointed and went on to think about what should have happened, his ambivalence and isolationism could have been developed by giving his wife Celebrian's story and in a twist at the end find the perpetrator being Azog. Just as Thorin should have slain Azog at the Battle of A and Bolg seek life long revenge on him; and winning Dain's trust having avenged the death of his father Nain. In other words let support characters give depth and motivation to primary ones, which brings me to Celeborn.
I would ask everyone to sit down with a piece of paper and write down exactly what element of the LOTR narrative is effected if Celeborn is dead and stays dead.
Is the character who stands next to Galadriel in Lorien and the Grey Havens in the movies actually named (thats a genuine question I am going to watch the movies shortly).
That Celeborn's back story is fluid is a good indicator that Mr Tolkien had not settled on his role in the narrative. Was he important as in one version where warrior Galadriel defends her mother's kin against Feanor or where she comes to Doriath and becomes acquainted with Melian. There are substantial story telling opportunities for Celeborn in either approaches but it never happened.
Now we have an incredibly contracted time line and Celeborn lost at the end of the first age.
Does Galadriel come upon him in a romantic setting in the woods of the Greenwood, playing a Harp, in a reversal of Beren and Luthien and echoing her meeting in Doriath and Finrod meeting men.
Does he appear with Cirdan at the havens having been in the "Bardo" of Valinor.
Given the huge weight of Galadriel in the narrative to date; his character, if it actually remerges with that name, will need a substantial backstory flashback with Galadriel, his death and journey to the present.
There is another option which she comes upon Celeborn and thinks he is Sauron. That for me feels a little repetitive.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 18 2024, 5:38am)
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TFP
Lorien
Oct 18 2024, 8:47am
Post #40 of 79
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...I would ask everyone to sit down with a piece of paper and write down exactly what element of the LOTR narrative is effected if Celeborn is dead and stays dead...
well, other than being something of an example of Tolkien's liking for tales of male partners 'punching above their weight', something he rather modestly considered himself to have done with his own wife [see also Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril, Aragorn/Arwen, in various mythological traditions various goddesses/nymphs etc falling for human male heroes]...
really for my money Celeborn's main role in the narrative is that of a character who acts as a complementary wise, stable 'steady eddie'/'straight man' to Galadriel's maybe more 'powerful' but also headstrong potential loose cannon... a role which, of course, in the show Elrond has more or less performed to passably good effect.
(This post was edited by TFP on Oct 18 2024, 8:48am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 18 2024, 8:55am
Post #41 of 79
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...I would ask everyone to sit down with a piece of paper and write down exactly what element of the LOTR narrative is effected if Celeborn is dead and stays dead... well, other than being something of an example of Tolkien's liking for tales of male partners 'punching above their weight', something he rather modestly considered himself to have done with his wife [see also Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril, Aragorn/Arwen, in various mythological traditions various goddesses/nymphs etc falling for human male heroes]... really for my money Celeborn's main role in the narrative is that of a character who acts as a complementary wise, stable 'steady eddie'/'straight man' to Galadriel's maybe more 'powerful' but also headstrong potential loose cannon... a role which, of course, in the show Elrond has more or less performed to passably good effect.
Hit the spot in one, on the motivation, not the person, and do we need another character to be parachuted in to achieve that when we have someone? That's enough speculative threading on my part, which can become a fault. Let them tell the tale they want to.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 18 2024, 8:56am)
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TFP
Lorien
Oct 18 2024, 9:28am
Post #42 of 79
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I suppose the prof himself was quite fond of having more than one character sharing certain key similarities in the story [the obvious example being the multiple 'lost heirs, possibly in exile' through Aragorn, Bard, arguably Thorin].
Two seasons in, the lack of Celeborn [outside of a single spoken sentence] is becoming something of a glaring omission in RoP. If nothing else it's really odd that Galadriel's short 'autobiography' at the beginning of the first episode didn't mention him even once.
(This post was edited by TFP on Oct 18 2024, 9:29am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 18 2024, 10:50am
Post #43 of 79
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I suppose the prof himself was quite fond of having more than one character sharing certain key similarities in the story [the obvious example being the multiple 'lost heirs, possibly in exile' through Aragorn, Bard, arguably Thorin].
Two seasons in, the lack of Celeborn [outside of a single spoken sentence] is becoming something of a glaring omission in RoP. If nothing else it's really odd that Galadriel's short 'autobiography' at the beginning of the first episode didn't mention him even once.
It is a 'glaring omission' but my original point was that he has no narrative consequences by not being there. However he has massive narrative consequences by not being there for Galadriel. Her S1 and S2 story would have been quite different.
Going forward if he is never introduced, or Celebrian for that matter, in terms of the history of Middle Earth in the second age either of their absence has no impact. In third age the narrative consequence is important Arwen.
Conversely Isildur has a love interest established in Season 2 that must be important for the story they want to tell.
I think what I am doing rather badly is to say the absence of certain characters may be a judgement based on the ROP narrative they want to tell which really has little impact other than being technically Out Lore.
Conversely in the LOTR story he just stood next to Galadriel and uttered a few 'I have got gravitas because I speak slowly' words.
Galadriel as the Hobbit showed is of interest to film makers within the middle earth film universe Celeborn much less so.
On the question of Beren/Tuor and Aragorn they are of a different order of magnitude of importance to the narrative. I know thats a rather obvious point to make but you raised them as consorts.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 18 2024, 10:54am)
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Noria
Grey Havens
Oct 18 2024, 3:06pm
Post #44 of 79
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IMO Celeborn’s absence will be glaring mostly to those with some knowledge of book Galadriel. I don’t miss him in RoP yet because IMO we don’t really need to know more about him until either his absence or presence impacts Galadriel’s story. At this point, we have no real idea how his loss affects her, though it must. She only spoke of him during her period of reflection and self-blaming after the disaster in the Southlands.
Now that Galadriel's perceived flirtation with Halbrand is done with, the way is clear for her husband to enter the narrative. Galadriel’s brief mention of Celeborn will serve to deflect complaints that we didn’t know about him if he suddenly appears. Perhaps he won’t show up until late in the 5th season, as some sort of completion of Galadriel’s arc. What do a few more years matter when he’s been gone for centuries?
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Noria
Grey Havens
Oct 18 2024, 3:07pm
Post #45 of 79
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You would probably know better than I.
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Sorry, I have no idea where I heard that bit about Celeborn’s lost scenes and so maybe I’m mis-remembering. The one I’ve heard about that I’d like to see is the wedding of Eowyn and Faramir.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 18 2024, 6:56pm
Post #46 of 79
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Given the huge weight of Galadriel in the narrative to date; his character, if it actually remerges with that name, will need a substantial backstory flashback with Galadriel, his death and journey to the present.
Why? If these writers handle a reunion anything like the writers of Ahsoka - and I would give them no more credit than that - here's the scene:
Galadriel: Hey.
Celeborn: Hey. (nods)
Galadriel runs off to defeat an army of trolls single-handedly.
I'm not sure about the order of "Hey." Maybe Celeborn should speak first.
Actually. thinking about your preferences, that would seem to be a serious distraction from what Rings of Power wants to do with the material in limited time and episodes. So if they are restricted to doing it right, that might seal Celeborn's fate to be forever lost.
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Oct 18 2024, 7:06pm)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Oct 18 2024, 11:58pm
Post #47 of 79
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Exactly my reaction to Jackson's elves
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Not to get sidetracked - but this brings up one of my biggest pet peeves about the Jackson films. Celeborn was a huge charisma vacuum in those films.
With the exception of Legolas, I really hated how Jackson depicted Elves in his films. The slow motion, the low register for speaking, the weird ethereal luminescence - all of it were choices I disagree with. Probably the most glaring, head-scratching take of all is something Jackson says in the director's commentary:
As the fellowship is escaping Moria - during the "GIVE THEM A MOMENT FOR PITY'S SAKE!" scene, Jackson recalls giving Orlando Bloom this direction (paraphrased)
"You're an immortal elf who has lived for thousands of years and you are confused by death and by the grief of your companions as its something you're not used to..." or something to that effect.
I almost fell out of my chair at home listening to it.
Yes!; Those lugubrious and occasionally too-solid elves. When I read the books, I pictured the elves as preternaturally thin and quick, though some of them had some gravitas too. Legolas was the only one who came close to my mental image.
I wanted at least a hint of beings that in less troubled times might be singing tra-la-la-lally. .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Felagund
Rohan
Oct 19 2024, 7:42am
Post #48 of 79
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the Glorfindel arc, minus Glorfindel?
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Perhaps Celeborn is going to get the Glorfindel treatment? Something along the lines of slain at some point in the First Age (the Nirnaeth or one of the sackings of Doriath) and then re-embodied and sent back, perhaps with some kind of message from Valinor for Galadriel?
I've also hit the limits of speculation, I reckon!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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TFP
Lorien
Oct 19 2024, 8:21am
Post #49 of 79
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Perhaps Celeborn is going to get the Glorfindel treatment? Something along the lines of slain at some point in the First Age (the Nirnaeth or one of the sackings of Doriath) and then re-embodied and sent back, perhaps with some kind of message from Valinor for Galadriel?
I've also hit the limits of speculation, I reckon!
maybe he'll be (shield?) surfing the wave that gets sent to sink numenor?
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 19 2024, 8:23am
Post #50 of 79
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Perhaps Celeborn is going to get the Glorfindel treatment? Something along the lines of slain at some point in the First Age (the Nirnaeth or one of the sackings of Doriath) and then re-embodied and sent back, perhaps with some kind of message from Valinor for Galadriel?
I've also hit the limits of speculation, I reckon!
This idea is very beguiling and for several reasons.
1) We are missing a Wizard.
2) Mithrandir has implied connections with Galadriel (LOTR) There is the tale of the Elessar.
3) Glorfindel (Celeborn) in Mr Tolkien's mind had to return before the fall of the Numenor and the world made round.
However, Out Lore ignoring 3 and given 1 and 2 and her trusted Sindar, Arondir: Celeborn might clutter the narrative. To add to Noria's point, Celeborn could return right at the end with a message from the Valar indicating she is free to return after rejecting the ROP's chance in S1. In film-only audience terms, Celeborn is wrapped up in the eventual return to Valinor.
In other words, look at the complications of following the professor In Lore, then take some text from the main work and offer an echo.
All of this depends on which strands you consider crucial for S3 to S5 because they have already learnt that even the story they wish to tell gets compressed and edited (Numenor) when you have so many threads.
Personally, each time I look at this whilst Numenor and the nine and the ring strife of the dwarves emptying of K-D are a given; I would like to see Mithrandir and the Blues and Lorien, the Stoors and the Entwives, if you like the Eastern front developed and create a coherent narrative.
Sauron is pushing on Lindon, the Dwarves are self-destructing the Numenorians are exploiting, just add the East and use the interesting characters they have moved back in time and created and some of those echos and refractions.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 19 2024, 8:27am)
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