|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
OldestDaughter
Nargothrond
Oct 3 2024, 3:16pm
Post #1 of 65
(6554 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Vanity Fair Interview with Creators on who the Dark Wizard may be
|
Can't Post
|
|
Interesting article, I would of thought that the Dark Wizard would of been Saruman since The Stranger is now a 2nd Age Gandalf, but according to the directors and creators of the show, they are saying that the Dark Wizard is almost impossible to be Saruman.
What do you all think?
I will attach the article and quote the conversation as well!
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/story/lord-of-the-rings-rings-of-power-finale
From the article-
"One of the characters who still doesn't get a name is the Dark Wizard played by Ciarán Hinds. We know that he's a wizard, we know he's one of five. He says that to Gandalf. I think we can guess that perhaps he is Saruman, but I won't ask you to confirm that because obviously you've chosen not to answer it.
McKay: No, no, I'll say something on the record. Given the history of Middle-earth, it would be highly, highly, highly improbable that this could be Saruman.
Payne: If not impossible.
McKay: The Dark Wizard has an important role to play in the doings of Middle-earth, and in the development of our wizard, who's now coming into his own. Tom Bombadil has told him, "You're destined to face him. And then destined to face Sauron." So the Dark Wizard's fate is not decided and his name is not out there yet, but it would almost defy the laws of gravity and physics for it to be Saruman.
Seeing the way he roughed up the halflings made me think, If he is Saruman, how would he ever regain the trust that Gandalf has to later place in him?
McKay: I think that's a fair observation.
Tolkien also made note of only five wizards, Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White…
Payne: There's Radagast the Brown and then there's two blue wizards—and that's all we'll say."
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 3 2024, 3:41pm
Post #2 of 65
(6463 views)
Shortcut
|
"Given the history of Middle-earth, it would be highly, highly, highly improbable that this could be Saruman."
I could say exactly the same thing about the Stranger being Gandalf, and look how that turned out. I was hoping beyond hope that the Stranger would be one of the Blue Wizards. His being Gandalf reeks of the worst sort of pandering. It's fan-service with no story logic, and it disrespects Tolkien's authorial intent.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
|
|
|
OldestDaughter
Nargothrond
Oct 3 2024, 3:44pm
Post #3 of 65
(6459 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That's why I wanted to ask others about it
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I thought it was strange with them saying that it's so impossible with this being Saruman and then have Gandalf appear in the 2nd Age. I'm curious to see if they want to keep it this way and keep the Dark Wizard as one of the others, or change him to be Saruman
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
|
|
|
Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 3 2024, 4:01pm
Post #4 of 65
(6451 views)
Shortcut
|
First of all I am glad the Dark Wizard isn't Saruman... yet. They may change that because it became quite obvious that they change their minds on subjects over time.
But my favorite line of them from a cynical perspective is this one:
I don't know that we have successfully made this our rep, but we really are not trying to be clever for clever's sake. We're not trying to make little mystery games and puzzle boxes. We're really trying to play with our cards open.
I really don't want to be cynical but that's totally not true. Reading this after experiencing both seasons feels like a joke. With the narrative of S1 especially being almost entirely driven by their artificially created and unnecessary mystery surrounding the identities of Adar, Halbrand, the Stranger and the leader of the Mystics and who of them could be Sauron. And later doing the same thing for the Stranger for another entire season. The whole Rhûn storyline only was there this season for the mysteries sake and didn't do much at all for either the characters involved or the bigger picture.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
|
|
|
DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Oct 3 2024, 4:22pm
Post #5 of 65
(6445 views)
Shortcut
|
McKay: No, no, I'll say something on the record. Given the history of Middle-earth, it would be highly, highly, highly improbable that this could be Saruman.
Payne: If not impossible.
Well that's encouraging for a show inventing their way through what rights the Tolkien Estate otherwise refuse to provide.
|
|
|
DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Oct 3 2024, 4:27pm
Post #6 of 65
(6440 views)
Shortcut
|
"Given the history of Middle-earth, it would be highly, highly, highly improbable that this could be Saruman."
I could say exactly the same thing about the Stranger being Gandalf, and look how that turned out. I was hoping beyond hope that the Stranger would be one of the Blue Wizards. His being Gandalf reeks of the worst sort of pandering. It's fan-service with no story logic, and it disrespects Tolkien's authorial intent.
Anyone who never thought The Stranger was Gandalf probably also thought it wasn't obvious Halibrand was Sauron until it was spelled out for them, including, apparently, the actor himself.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 3 2024, 4:45pm
Post #7 of 65
(6436 views)
Shortcut
|
Anyone who never thought The Stranger was Gandalf probably also thought it wasn't obvious Halibrand was Sauron until it was spelled out for them, including, apparently, the actor himself.
Oh, I knew that there were strong indications that the Stranger was intended to be Gandalf, I was just hoping that Payne & McKay would either change their minds or it would turn out that they were trolling the audience. There was not a good in-universe reason to go there. Bringing Gandalf into Middle-earth in the Second Age was unnecessary unless they had been denied permission to use the Blue Wizards in any of their Second-Age incarnations.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
|
|
|
jlj93byu
Ossiriand
Oct 3 2024, 4:56pm
Post #8 of 65
(6435 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes. Their response was just inexplicable given their approach to Gandalf, who in various accounts consistently arrived in the Third Age, and who also never traveled to the East.
Comments like this just frustrate me because it completely undermines any trust. Saying things like this don't make any sense when they ignore their own words if it's convenient for them.
|
|
|
OldestDaughter
Nargothrond
Oct 3 2024, 5:40pm
Post #9 of 65
(6429 views)
Shortcut
|
for now this wizard is not Saruman and one of the Blues.
But in another two years, that might change (probably will sadly).
Even without them saying he is Saruman, he has the same tendencies, (calling Gandalf old friend the same way Saruman did in the films, pattern of his hair and beard look very similar to how it was in LOTR just ages later, the black in his beard makes sense after seeing how dark he is in RoP if it's the same man. Even using dark magic for 'good' in his eyes is the same) but I guess we will see in two years.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
|
|
|
AshNazg
Hithlum
Oct 3 2024, 11:33pm
Post #10 of 65
(6373 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It's Gandalf the Brown and he will probably die...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I've felt from the beginning that the colour hierarchy was going to be explored somehow. I could see them doing a lot of workarounds to make their inconsistencies make sense - Technically it's not Gandalf the Grey, he dies and comes back in the Third Age as Grey. Technically the Dark Wizard is not blue yet either - and so it's all book accurate.
They could do the same with the Elven Rings being forged last - The elves sense Sauron wearing The One and take off their rings. They could then agree that the three need to be hidden, and decide to reforge them with magic so that they become invisible. So technically they will be forged last.
There are sneaky ways they can fix these issues.
|
|
|
OldestDaughter
Nargothrond
Oct 4 2024, 12:51am
Post #11 of 65
(6354 views)
Shortcut
|
And if Amazon aquires more film rights (from this season alone they seem to have gained more than with season one) then they may try to find ways to seamlessly connect it to the films. I don't see Gandalf in the show being called Gandalf the Grey yet, he's just Gandalf. Maybe we will see him die like you said or return to Middle-Earth where he becomes the Grey.
Out of curiosity, my friend, do you think the Dark Wizard is Saruman or a Blue Wizard? After mulling over it, I'm not sure to think. Part of me sees Saruman in him, but another part hopes he's one of the Blues. I guess we will see in two more years at least.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
|
|
|
AshNazg
Hithlum
Oct 4 2024, 5:31am
Post #12 of 65
(6335 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I don't think the Dark Wizard is a mystery...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
By which I mean, it won't be revealed who he is, and we're not supposed to wait for the reveal. He's not a mystery box, he is The Dark Wizard.
I'm pretty confident on this. The LotR doesn't mention the Blue Wizards so they don't have the rights for them. But Saruman mentions "The rods of the Five Wizards". So the Dark Wizard is one of the Five. (Not Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast) That's all they can say.
Tolkien speculated that one of the Blue Wizards went bad and started magical cults in the East, so that checks out. He's that one.
I think for future series Amazon will be fighting hard for the rights to the Blue Wizards, so they can officially reveal his identity. But it may never happen - I think he will just remain the Dark Wizard.
What I wonder is if the other Blue Wizard will show up. We still have the South to explore, maybe he's there somewhere. Perhaps one of the other characters will meet him - doesn't have to be Gandalf. Maybe he (or she!) will be called "Light Wizard"
|
|
|
sharku
Menegroth
Oct 4 2024, 9:09am
Post #13 of 65
(6307 views)
Shortcut
|
...and it disrespects Tolkien's authorial intent.
Me: You know this...how?
Otaku-sempai: I have seen it (reveals Palantir)
The story intent was to have the Istari arrive to counter the threat of Sauron...as per show timeline, Sauron is out and about and in need of countering. Don't get me wrong...I was still hoping (against hope & on-screen reasons) that the stranger wouldn't be Gandalf.
(This post was edited by sharku on Oct 4 2024, 9:14am)
|
|
|
TFP
Menegroth
Oct 4 2024, 9:22am
Post #14 of 65
(6300 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Istari's role & chronology
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...The story intent was to have the Istari arrive to counter the threat of Sauron...as per show timeline, Sauron is out and about and in need of countering....
Well, yes and no...
For me the reason why the timing of the Istari's arrival [not so much the order they arrived in amongst themselves, but the overall timeline] is important is that the Istari mark a shift in modus operandi for the resistance against Morgoth/Morgoth's influence through Sauron... the Istari are all about subtlety, restraint, and guidance, and mark a sea change from the earlier days of, y'know, Fingolfin going toe-to-toe with Morgoth; elves [maybe wearing rings] and men raising huge armies that can beat Morgoth or Sauron by force, possibly climaxing in bouts of single combat; Maia themselves getting in on the action; and, in the 'watermark' case, Ilúvatar himself sending in tidal waves.
So, yes, the Istari are kind of inherently 'a Third Age thing', not simply because 'that's what it says in the books' but because that's, thematically, what they do logically follows the cataclysmic end of the Second Age. Moving them onto the board at a time when e.g. Numenor is capable of fielding huge armies which can overcome Sauron by force, with the elves also able to put out a really strong force, led by their ring-wearing, magic spear wielding, high king.... does seem perhaps a little unnecessary other than as a Plan B enacted early as a contingency rather than as an ex post response to Plan A...
(This post was edited by TFP on Oct 4 2024, 9:25am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 4 2024, 10:42am
Post #15 of 65
(6288 views)
Shortcut
|
...and it disrespects Tolkien's authorial intent. Me: You know this...how? Otaku-sempai: I have seen it (reveals Palantir) The story intent was to have the Istari arrive to counter the threat of Sauron...as per show timeline, Sauron is out and about and in need of countering. Don't get me wrong...I was still hoping (against hope & on-screen reasons) that the stranger wouldn't be Gandalf.
I know this from reading the appendices and other sources, that tell us that at least three of the Istari (Curumo/Saruman, Aiwendil/Radagast and Olórin/Gandalf/Mithrandir) arrived in Middle-earth around year 1000 of the Third Age. I don't need a palantír for that.
Yes, later sources have two of the Istari being sent to Middle-earth at around the year 1600 of the Second Age, both to attempt to locate Sauron and to counter his influence in the East and South, but they were not any of the wizards we know from The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings, as I'm sure you are perfectly well aware.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 4 2024, 10:44am)
|
|
|
OldestDaughter
Nargothrond
Oct 4 2024, 1:41pm
Post #16 of 65
(6261 views)
Shortcut
|
|
You really do have a good point
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I guess it's all a waiting game, but I would rather him be one of the two we haven't seen before.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
|
|
|
OldestDaughter
Nargothrond
Oct 4 2024, 2:19pm
Post #17 of 65
(6249 views)
Shortcut
|
The Dark Wizard is supposed to be the Rhunic Wizard that was one of the Blues in the books.
And I can see that this Gandalf is a different form of Gandalf because I think in some of the History of Middle-earth books, it said that Olorin possibly had appeared in Middle-earth before the 3rd Age. So this may be a different version of Gandalf than the 3rd age of Gandalf the Grey.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
|
|
|
NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Oct 4 2024, 2:44pm
Post #18 of 65
(6234 views)
Shortcut
|
I only give 0.01% for the Dark Wizard to be Saruman. He is definitely one of the Blue Istari according to Tolkien's letter 211. "I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [wizards] – since they do not concern the history of the N[orth].W[est]. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
This quote above is the exact case of the Dark Wizard and his cult.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Oct 4 2024, 2:45pm)
|
|
|
OldestDaughter
Nargothrond
Oct 4 2024, 3:24pm
Post #19 of 65
(6221 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I actually really like your point
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I rather have him being one of the two Istar instead of Saruman anyways, so I really like that. Hopefully they will either make him know as one of the Blues or we will just stay named "the Dark Wizard" and we just know he is meant to be one of the two wizards that went East. I do like this idea. So I guess it's safe to say for now, it is definitely not Saruman and most likely one of the Blue Istari.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 4 2024, 4:52pm
Post #20 of 65
(6195 views)
Shortcut
|
The Dark Wizard is supposed to be the Rhunic Wizard that was one of the Blues in the books.
And I can see that this Gandalf is a different form of Gandalf because I think in some of the History of Middle-earth books, it said that Olorin possibly had appeared in Middle-earth before the 3rd Age. So this may be a different version of Gandalf than the 3rd age of Gandalf the Grey.
We do have evidence in The Nature of Middle-earth for a group of Maiar sent to Middle-earth in the Years of the Trees to protect the newly awakened Elves from Melkor. These guardians, led by Melian, were Tarindor (Curunír, later Saruman), Olórin (Gandalf), Hrávandil (Aiwendil, later Radagast), Palacendo (Pallando/Rómestámo?), and Haimenar (Alatar/Morinehtar?). What we don't have is any indication that Gandalf (or either Saruman or Radagast) took part in any of the events of the Second Age. We also have evidence of the Ithryn Luin being sent to Middle-earth around the year 1600 of the Second Age, both to attempt to seek-out Sauron's lair and to oppose Sauron's influence in the East and South.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 4 2024, 4:58pm)
|
|
|
NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Oct 4 2024, 5:04pm
Post #21 of 65
(6189 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Otaku, i rely on your deep knowledge of the lore.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I was reading Unfinished Tales the past week and it came to my mind that this quote/passage : "Olórin (who was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir) brought it with him out of the West. And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great..... And when Olórin had told her many tidings she sighed, and said: ‘I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.’ Then Olórin said: ‘Would you then have the Elessar?’ ....And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered. And Olórin said: ‘This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth....' "
Maybe i am totally confused as usual with my lore knowledge, but is that a slight indication about Olorin coming at the Second Age? I need your help to reconciliate much better with the idea of Gandalf in the series.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
|
|
|
jlj93byu
Ossiriand
Oct 4 2024, 5:27pm
Post #22 of 65
(6180 views)
Shortcut
|
The Dark Wizard is supposed to be the Rhunic Wizard that was one of the Blues in the books.
And I can see that this Gandalf is a different form of Gandalf because I think in some of the History of Middle-earth books, it said that Olorin possibly had appeared in Middle-earth before the 3rd Age. So this may be a different version of Gandalf than the 3rd age of Gandalf the Grey.
In HoME volume 12, it has this passage: "That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing [>has yet been] said of this." (p. 381)
The showrunners confirmed in an interview that this single sentence was their justification for bringing Gandalf into their show in the Second Age. Admittedly that sentence is vague, and outside of that one sentence there's no evidence of Gandalf being in Middle-earth during the Second Age, but nonetheless, it could be interpreted broadly enough to justify it.
I must admit, I had completely forgotten about this sentence until just this morning.
(This post was edited by jlj93byu on Oct 4 2024, 5:28pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 4 2024, 5:53pm
Post #23 of 65
(6175 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Galadriel in Greenwood the Great
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I was reading Unfinished Tales the past week and it came to my mind that this quote/passage : "Olórin (who was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir) brought it with him out of the West. And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great..... And when Olórin had told her many tidings she sighed, and said: ‘I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.’ Then Olórin said: ‘Would you then have the Elessar?’ ....And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered. And Olórin said: ‘This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth....' " Maybe i am totally confused as usual with my lore knowledge, but is that a slight indication about Olorin coming at the Second Age? I need your help to reconciliate much better with the idea of Gandalf in the series.
I had forgotten about this, or maybe I assumed it was soon after Gandalf arrived in Middle-earth around T.A. 1000. It is interesting that the passage has Galadriel dwelling in the Greenwood. That does suggest that this might be in the Second Age, before she settled in Lórinand. Presumably this would be Olórin on a lesser mission, long before he was sent back to Middle-earth as one of the Istari.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
|
|
|
AshNazg
Hithlum
Oct 4 2024, 7:08pm
Post #24 of 65
(6145 views)
Shortcut
|
Reading the passage in context strongly suggests this is the Third Age. Galadriel was often living outside of Lorien at this time. It was not until far on in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lórinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there, in the year 1981. - Unfinished Tales
It seems that Galadriel lived for a time in Greenwood, early in the Third Age. It mentions that the Elessar was given to Gandalf by Yavanna, which suggests this was one of his first tasks on Middle-earth. So around the semicentury 1000 - 1050. After 1050 Greenwood changed to Mirkwood.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Oct 4 2024, 7:11pm)
|
|
|
OldestDaughter
Nargothrond
Oct 4 2024, 8:25pm
Post #25 of 65
(6123 views)
Shortcut
|
|
On the subject of the three elven rings
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I do hope that if Amazon acquires more rights (or all) for the films, I hope they can change the designs of the Rings. Vilya and Narya look fine(and similar enough to the films), but I think the show's version of Nenya isn't very pretty. It's way too bulky for an elven ring haha.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
|
|
|
|
|
1
