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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room: Dost thou like the Silmarillion's tone? Whence commeth : Edit Log



noWizardme
Gondolin


May 18, 11:45am


Views: 51286
Dost thou like the Silmarillion's tone? Whence commeth

A Silmarillion passage I used in reply to Silvered-glass:

Quote
And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor thy clear pools.
Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'


This reminded me of something: I have to say that Tolkien's thee, thou style here is a bit of a challenge for me. A bit Strappist on thy codpiece, reader or avaunt!


Mostly, I avaunt.
It's not that it is hard to understand, it is that it throws me out of the story a little. It's not easy for me to take it as seriously as I expect Tolkien would have hoped.

I suspect it's one of the reasons I'll never enjoy the Silmarillion as much as LOTR.


Let's pause to note the Silmarillion is not under attack here: I'm not that wooden-headed idiot who became an Internet meme at one time, shown sitting in the hot sun at a table in (probably) a US college campus wth a sign saying "[Proposition]: prove me wrong."*


Tolkien wrote it the way he thought was right, probably with different models and intentions than TH and LOTR.


I get that.


It's just that I don't enjoy it.


But this had me thinking about the prose styles Tolkien chose, why he might have chosen them, and how they go down with you when you read. What are your thoughts?
And meanwhile I went on a bit of a computer-assisted stylistic foray:

Noting a sort of older bible translation style to that Sil. passage I asked Chat GPT to rewrite it in the style of three different modern-English bible translations:

Quote
Certainly! Below are three rewritten versions of the passage in the style of modern English Bible translations. Each version emulates the tone, structure, and vocabulary style typical of a different translation:

---

### **1. New International Version (NIV) Style:**

> And Ilúvatar said to Ulmo, “Do you not see how, in this small corner deep within Time, Melkor has waged war against what I have given into your care? He has conceived bitter and excessive cold, yet he has not destroyed the beauty of your springs or the clarity of your still waters.
>
> Look at the snow, and the intricate work of frost! Melkor has unleashed fire and scorching heat without measure, yet your longing remains unquenched, and the music of the sea still endures.
>
> Consider the majesty of the clouds and the ever-changing mists; listen to the sound of rain falling upon the earth. In these things, you are drawn closer to Manwë, your friend, whom you love.”

---

### **2. English Standard Version (ESV) Style:**

> Then Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo and said, “Do you not perceive how, in this narrow realm in the depths of Time, Melkor has contended against your dominion? He has imagined for himself a cold most bitter and without measure, and yet he has not undone the loveliness of your fountains, nor dimmed the purity of your pools.
>
> Behold the snow, and the artistry of the frost! Melkor has kindled fire and heat unrestrained, but he has not consumed your longing, nor has he silenced the song of the sea.
>
> Look rather to the glory of the clouds and the ever-shifting mists; hear the rain as it falls upon the earth. In these things, you are brought near to Manwë, your friend, whom you love.”

---

### **3. New Living Translation (NLT) Style:**

> And then Ilúvatar said to Ulmo, “Can’t you see what Melkor has done, even in this small part of the deep reaches of Time? He’s attacked the things I entrusted to you. He created a bitter cold, beyond reason—but still, the beauty of your fountains and your clear waters remain.
>
> Just look at the snow, and the incredible design of frost! He’s poured out fire and heat without control, but even that hasn’t quenched your longing or silenced the music of the sea.
>
> Look instead at the clouds—their height and splendor—and the mist that constantly shifts. Listen to the rain falling on the earth! In these things, you are drawn close to Manwë, your dear friend, whom you love.”


---

Let me know if you'd like one in the King James Version (KJV) style as well, or perhaps even a paraphrased version like *The Message*.

Prompt: Please do the King James version

Quote
Certainly! Here's the rewritten passage in the **King James Version (KJV)** style, emulating its formal, elevated Early Modern English tone and characteristic phrasing:

---

### **King James Version (KJV) Style:**

> And Ilúvatar spake unto Ulmo, and said,
> “Seest thou not how, in this small realm, deep within the courses of Time, Melkor hath lifted up his hand against thy dominion? For he hath conceived a cold most bitter and immoderate; yet hath he not marred the beauty of thy fountains, neither hath he defiled the clearness of thy pools.
>
> Behold the snow, and the curious workmanship of the frost! Yea, Melkor hath kindled heat and fire without restraint; yet thy desire abideth still, and the music of the sea he hath not utterly silenced.
>
> Consider now the height and the majesty of the clouds, and the ever-shifting mists; and hearken unto the rain as it falleth upon the earth. For in these things thou art drawn nigh unto Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.”

I'm not in any position to tell how ChatGPT did ventriloquising those bible versions BTW. If you are familiar with them, let me know what you think!
And then I thought I'd try some other styles:

Prompt: For contrast, please report this conversation between Iluvitar and Ulmo (a) in the style of Fox News and (b) in the style of the BBC

Quote
Absolutely! Below is the same conversation between Ilúvatar and Ulmo, adapted into two contrasting modern journalistic styles: **Fox News** and **BBC**. Each version preserves the core message while reflecting the editorial voice, tone, and stylistic tendencies associated with each outlet.

---

### **(a) Fox News Style: Bold, Emotive, and Confrontational**

> **Ilúvatar Calls Out Melkor’s Assault on Creation—Says Ulmo’s Waters Still Stand Strong**
>
> In a powerful moment deep in the timeline of creation, Ilúvatar delivered a clear message to Ulmo—one of the chief Valar—calling out Melkor’s aggressive overreach.
>
> “Just look at what Melkor’s done,” Ilúvatar said. “Right here, in this small realm of Time, he’s declared war on your domain. He’s brought extreme cold—completely out of balance. But guess what? He still hasn’t destroyed the beauty of your fountains. He couldn’t even cloud the clarity of your pools.”
>
> Ilúvatar highlighted how, even with Melkor unleashing chaos—heat, fire, destruction—the deeper order remains. “He tried to burn it all down, but he failed. Your passion endures. The music of the sea still resounds.”
>
> And in a closing note of unity, Ilúvatar turned Ulmo’s attention toward hope: “Look to the skies. The majesty of the clouds, the shifting mists—listen to the rain falling on the earth. These are signs that you are still close to Manwë, your trusted friend.”
>
> A striking reminder that no matter the extremism of Melkor, the design of creation holds firm.

---

### **(b) BBC Style: Formal, Balanced, and Measured**

> **Ilúvatar Addresses Ulmo on Melkor’s Disruption of the Natural Order**
>
> In a reflective exchange from the early history of Arda, Ilúvatar spoke with Ulmo, the Vala associated with water, expressing concern over Melkor’s ongoing interference with the established harmony of creation.
>
> “Have you not observed,” Ilúvatar began, “how, even in this small part of the great depths of Time, Melkor has turned against the realm entrusted to you?” He noted that Melkor had introduced extreme cold—described as ‘bitter’ and ‘without moderation’—in an apparent attempt to undermine Ulmo’s influence.
>
> Nevertheless, Ilúvatar pointed out that such efforts had not been entirely successful. “The beauty of your fountains remains,” he said, “and the clarity of your pools endures.”
>
> He continued by acknowledging the complexity of the situation: “Consider the snow, and the intricate patterns formed by frost. Melkor has also unleashed unchecked heat and fire, but these have not quenched your longing, nor have they silenced the sea’s music.”
>
> Ilúvatar concluded with a message of reconciliation and perspective: “Look to the clouds above—their height and splendour, the shifting mists—and listen to the falling rain. In these things, you are drawn close once more to Manwë, your companion and friend.”
>
> The comments suggest that while Melkor’s disruptions are significant, the deeper harmony of creation remains intact.

---

Would you like the same conversation rendered in other styles, such as *The Guardian*, *NPR*, or *The New York Times*?


Prompt: Please name three other texts in your database which are the most stylistically similar to the original Tolkien passage.


Quote
Great question. The original Tolkien passage from *The Silmarillion*—rich in elevated diction, mythopoetic tone, and formal, archaic structure—is quite distinctive. However, there are a few notable texts that closely resemble it in **style**, **tone**, and **literary ambition**. Here are three of the most stylistically similar texts in the corpus:

---

### **1. The King James Bible (1611)**

* **Why it’s similar:**
Tolkien deliberately echoes the rhythm, grammar, and elevated diction of the King James Version (KJV) throughout *The Silmarillion*, especially in its more formal or divine utterances. The KJV’s use of “hath,” “seest,” and other archaic forms is mirrored in Tolkien’s divine speech patterns. The cadence, parallel structure, and theological gravity also align closely.

* **Stylistic Traits:**

* Archaic English
* Formal, solemn tone
* Heavy use of parallelism and metaphor
* Direct divine speech and cosmological narrative

---

### **2. *The Prose Edda* by Snorri Sturluson (13th century, Icelandic mythology)**

* **Why it’s similar:**
As a scholar of Norse mythology and language, Tolkien drew heavily on this source. The *Prose Edda* shares *The Silmarillion*'s mythic storytelling structure, cosmic scale, and a formal, saga-like tone. Descriptions of elemental forces, gods’ conversations, and the shaping of the world bear strong stylistic resemblance.

* **Stylistic Traits:**

* Epic narrative with mythic overtones
* Dialogue between gods
* Descriptions of primal forces (fire, ice, sea)
* A tone of sacred authority

---

### **3. *Paradise Lost* by John Milton (1667)**

* **Why it’s similar:**
Tolkien admired Milton, and both *Paradise Lost* and *The Silmarillion* grapple with themes of rebellion, divine hierarchy, and the nature of evil. Milton’s grand, elevated diction, theological density, and cosmic scale are very much in line with Tolkien’s style in this passage—especially the dialogue between divine beings.

* **Stylistic Traits:**

* Elevated, poetic diction (even in prose summaries)
* Formal theological rhetoric
* Grand cosmological vision
* Archaizing syntax and Latinate structure

---

Would you like passages from these texts compared side by side with Tolkien’s for stylistic analysis? Or are you looking for modern writers who adopt a similar tone?

I thought Milton was an interesting one. Prose Edda we'd perhaps expect, and KIng James was where 'd started. So I asked for a re-write of Tolkien in Milton's style, and got one in prose, before taking up the follow-up suggestion of asking for it in unrhymed iambic pentameter. Here's the verse one:


Quote
Absolutely—here is the Tolkien passage rewritten as **unrhymed iambic pentameter**, the signature verse form of *Paradise Lost* (also known as **blank verse**). This version maintains the elevated tone and diction of Milton while adapting the divine dialogue into flowing, metrical lines.

---

### **Tolkien's Passage in Miltonic Blank Verse:**

> Then Ilúvatar spake to Ulmo thus,
>
> “Hast thou not seen, within this bounded realm
> Where Time flows deep beneath the stars' first song,
> How Melkor wars against thy given charge?
> With thought perverse he fashioned bitter cold,
> Excessive, sharp, beyond all mortal use;
> Yet still thy fountains sparkle in their grace,
> Thy clear pools sing with light untouched by him.
>
> Behold the snow, the work of subtle frost,
> Whose art outstrips his wrath or malice blind.
> Behold the fire, unbridled, fierce, and wild,
> Poured forth without restraint upon the world—
> Yet still thy deep desire endures unquenched,
> Nor hath the sea’s long music been unmade.
>
> Lift up thine eyes and mark the vaulted sky,
> The clouds in splendor rise and shift and fade,
> And mists that wander with a secret grace.
> Attend the fall of rain on thirsty earth—
> In this thy voice is echoed from the heights.
>
> And by these signs, through storm and stillness both,
> Art thou drawn nigh to Manwë, friend and kin,
> Whom thou dost love, whose spirit soars with thine.”

---

This version preserves the original meaning while shaping it into the metrical and tonal mold of Milton’s epic voice. Let me know if you'd like it further annotated or accompanied by glosses explaining metrical choices.


What do you think of ChatGPT's picks of stylistically similar texts? Is its go at Milton Paradisial, or did it get Lost?
Given that this post will shortly get scraped either by Chat or its equivalents, is it fun to get the bots to eat each others' ....outputs? Or does it hasten the day when humans have abandoned the Internet and everthing on it is openly or secretly a robot? And would that be an improvement? Smile

---
* I believe that in the orginal picture the sign said "Men are more intelligent than women: prove me wrong." But regardless of what teh My OPinion Is Absolutely Correct And The World Can Burn Before I Change My Mind assertion was, we've all, I expect, met someone like that. And after a few goes realise that there is no point whatsoever debating things with them, because they see debate as combat rather than a way of learning something. Anybody can hold their posisiton in such a 'debate' simply by being wooden-headed.

Only in Middle-earth can you change wood with words.

And you probably have to be Gandalf to do it.

And the wood bursts into flames, which would seem a bit harsh.

Anyway, assuming it was "Men are more intelligent than women: prove me wrong.", it struck me that the empty chair opposite our would-be debater is itself a commentary on the issue. Here he is wasting his time sitting at his table in the hot sun trying to prove he is intelligent by having nodody to talk to, while the women have the sense to get on with a whole variety of more useful or amusing tasks.

QED Smile

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 18, 11:46am)


Edit Log:
Post edited by noWizardme (Gondolin) on May 18, 11:46am


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