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Melkor enlisted Ungoliant as a helper, under his direction. Any thoughts on the way the relationship has developed to this point, and how Tolkien describes it. Which is the more perceptive? The more evil?

'Dost thou desire all the world for thy belly? I did not vow to give thee that. I am its Lord.' Morgoth says. Is he right about what he promised? Does he really believe in his lordship?

What do you think it is that gives Ungoliant so much power?

The cries of Morgoth actually affect the physical landscape - any thoughts about this?

This is a hard question to frame, but I'm intrigued by the significance of fire in Tolkien's universe. The Balrogs are spirits of fire and are entirely evil, and here we have them rising from the earth to save their master - fire seems to be an effective defense against Ungoliant, who devours other forms of light. Elsewhere, though, there seems to be a benign fire - the Secret Fire that is often referenced. Any thoughts on this?

We've debated the origins and nature of Orcs in a previous chapter but it comes up here again if anyone feels like taking it up - it's obviously a problem Tolkien himself grappled with. Here we're told 'the race of Orcs, bred long before, grew and multiplied in the bowels of the earth.'

What's the significance of Morgoth's crown being made of iron?

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Again, please feel free to pick and choose. (And thanks for the nice comments from yesterday!)

Melkor enlisted Ungoliant as a helper, under his direction. Any thoughts on the way the relationship has developed to this point, and how Tolkien describes it.

Which is the more perceptive? The more evil?

'Dost thou desire all the world for thy belly? I did not vow to give thee that. I am its Lord.' Morgoth says. Is he right about what he promised?

Does he really believe in his lordship?

Yes.

What do you think it is that gives Ungoliant so much power?

The trees of Yavanna, the wells of Varda, the gems of the Noldor.

The cries of Morgoth actually affect the physical landscape - any thoughts about this?

That's a common mythical device.

This is a hard question to frame, but I'm intrigued by the significance of fire in Tolkien's universe. The Balrogs are spirits of fire and are entirely evil, and here we have them rising from the earth to save their master - fire seems to be an effective defense against Ungoliant, who devours other forms of light. Elsewhere, though, there seems to be a benign fire - the Secret Fire that is often referenced. Any thoughts on this?

Just to mention - 'the Fire of Udun' Gandalf says would not avail Durin's Bane - is that of Utumno.

And I wonder - could Ungoliant feed on it? I would guess it is a lightless fire, which she couldn't.

We've debated the origins and nature of Orcs in a previous chapter but it comes up here again if anyone feels like taking it up - it's obviously a problem Tolkien himself grappled with. Here we're told 'the race of Orcs, bred long before, grew and multiplied in the bowels of the earth.'

The published Silmarillion reflects better Christopher's grappling with this problem - what to make of the scattered, incoherent references in his father's writings.

What's the significance of Morgoth's crown being made of iron?

Oh I do like your questions on this!

Melkor enlisted Ungoliant as a helper, under his direction. Any thoughts on the way the relationship has developed to this point, and how Tolkien describes it. Which is the more perceptive? The more evil?

Well this is a tough one, but I belive that Ungoliant is the most perceptive. I wouldn't say she's more intellegence, but she does have a better grasp of reality in my opinion. Melkor just seems to me to be so consumed by his lust for power that he doesn't really see his own weaknesses. He doesn't realize that his tricks are not really as effective as he thinks. Ungoliant saw through them and she recognized, if a little late, that her ally was not one to be trusted. (If I'm not mistaken, her suspicions actually began to take shape when she and Melkor were escaping from Valinor)

As to who is the most evil of the two, I think that there is something inherently and (I would go as far as to call it) biologically evil about Ungoliant. The fact that she feeds on light and all that is good and excretes evil and darkness is perverse in itself. In fact, she needs to be evil in order to continue living. That is why I think she is far more evil than the misguided Ainur who just went bad. She was born with evil, she did not acquire it.

'Dost thou desire all the world for thy belly? I did not vow to give thee that. I am its Lord.' Morgoth says. Is he right about what he promised? Does he really believe in his lordship?

I always saw Melkor as someone who is certain beyond any reasonable doubt of his right to his lordship. But I don't think that his refusal to give her the world comes from guilt or concern for the rest of the world, but rather from his own greed. If he were to give Ungoliant everything she desired, what would remain for his to reign over?

What do you think it is that gives Ungoliant so much power?

Well, like I said, Ungoliant feeds on all that is good in her path and leaves behind her a trail of desolation and blackness. Valinor was full of good things, of light and joy and beauty, but all of those things were like hors d'oeuvres to Ungoliant and the Trees were the main course. But something as corrupt and spoiled and perverse as Ungoliant will never be satisfied. She is corruption and perversion at their worst, and represents their insatiability.

The cries of Morgoth actually affect the physical landscape - any thoughts about this?

I never thought of it like that. To me, the fact that his cry continued to echo for years afterward simply emphasized his torment. That's an interesting thought, though. But I'd have thought that would be true for Aule rather that Melkor, unless his power now ran so deep that he could actually affect the earth like that... Interesting idea...

This is a hard question to frame, but I'm intrigued by the significance of fire in Tolkien's universe. The Balrogs are spirits of fire and are entirely evil, and here we have them rising from the earth to save their master - fire seems to be an effective defense against Ungoliant, who devours other forms of light. Elsewhere, though, there seems to be a benign fire - the Secret Fire that is often referenced. Any thoughts on this?

I noticed that too, and I have to admit, it made me a little angry... I don't like the fact that Fire is always seen as the destroyer and the evil one of the elements. The one Valar who betrayed the rest was the one whom Fire served. And yet, fire is always mentioned or alluded to, sometimes very implicitely, in a good way. There is always a fire burning in the heroes who come out victorious in the end and one of the two vessels the Valar send up into heaven to look down on earth is made of fire...

Then again, it is not surprising to see a duality in something so powerful. Some will use it for good, and others, being bewitched by its power and lusting for it will use it for evil.

We've debated the origins and nature of Orcs in a previous chapter but it comes up here again if anyone feels like taking it up - it's obviously a problem Tolkien himself grappled with. Here we're told 'the race of Orcs, bred long before, grew and multiplied in the bowels of the earth.'

This actually confuses me. How can they come out of the bowels of the earth when it is clearly stated at one point, when the Orcs are first mentioned, that they "breed after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar"? I thought that meant that you'd need a male and a female and some mood music... I don't understand. And what's that you say about Tolkien himself grappling with it?

What's the significance of Morgoth's crown being made of iron?

Well all the others, as one would imagine, have crowns of silver and gold, and they are probably encrusted with fair jewels and pearls... Elves are known to have them. Perhaps this is simply to mark the difference between the fair peoples of the world and the Dark Lord. The fair ones would obviously choose fine metals that are beautiful and pure, while it just makes sense that Melkor would adorn himself with the rough and hard substances produced in the depths of the earth.